Can we talk brakes?

I am considering doing a big brake upgrade and have heard about a relatively inexpensive way of doing it. 949 racing has caliper mounting brackets for about $200pr that will let you use VW 11" rotors up front that apparently are available at NAPA for about $70pr and you still use the factory miata calipers. My car does not have the sport brakes so my rears will remain small. Is this just a bling upgrade or does it really improve braking? I will still have the dinky single piston calipers and the contact surface area of my pads will not increase. Does the rotor being 1 inch bigger help reduce fade and keep the brakes that much cooler? I always thought big rotor means big caliper/pad for stronger braking. Am I wrong?

I have also considered using salvaged sport brakes I have been able to locate from time to time for $300-$400. The disadvantage I heard is that the pads and rotors are bastard sizes and can be difficult and much more expensive to replace and they are heavy, possibly diminishing the handling depending on tire/rim weight. True? The advantage appears to be the large rotor and larger pad.

Winning the lottery, and being named in Howard Hughes will so, money is no concern I like the Goodwin #4 kit for $1700. Big rotors with lightened center hats, lighter big 4 piston calipers, easier pad changes all seem good. However rotor and pad replacement I can guess is expensive and hard to find at a local parts store?

Do any of you here have an opinion about the 949 method? I will finish with stainless lines Hawk hp+ pads, and Motul fluid.

I have a set of wilwood big brakes with steel braided lines for $800

Gary @ TrackDogRacing.com sales brake pads for the Wilwoods they are cheaper than the stock pads (The rear are the same as the use the stock calipers)

I've recently upgraded my brakes.

Here's my breakdown, prices off the top of my head:
M-tuned/949 Brackets ~$110 after shipping
1.8 brackets fr/rr ~$100
Carbotech XP8's for 1.8 front ~$115
Mazda OEM Rear 1.8 pads ~$50
VW Rotors ~$50
NAPA Rear 1.8 ~$30
Motul RBF ~$15
"FM" Wilwood Adjustable Bias : ~$60 (Groupbuy and not installed yet, think TDR sells it also now)

Total: ~$530

I already had SS lines.

Impressions: I love the Carbotech XP8s on the track, they heat up quick and have a very linear grab which not hard to modulate. They squeal too much on the street, I need to get some Bobcats for the street.

The brake feel is greatly improved over the 1.6 hardware with Hawk pads (+ I think). I didn't have trouble with that setup on the track, I just got excited when the VW brackets came out. Looking back, I should've bought a MS or RX7 dif.

I think spending over ~$1K on brakes is not necessary for most people, unless you are already having major issues on the track with an already aggressive setup.

My advice:
Get the Corrado setup, then add a prop. valve along with some ducting to the rotors. This'll give you the best bang for your buck.

Spend the rest of the budget on track time, a driving school or MSR membership.

Chris

Starting in 2001 there were 2 different size rotors available on the Miata.

Cars with 15" rims had 10.0" front rotors and 9.9" rear rotors
Cars with 16" rims had 10.6" front rotors and 10.9" rear rotors

How much difference is the VW rotor going to get you since the Miata rotor is just .3" smaller??

Plus wouldn't the larger rear brakes from an LS also help in braking?

I know my wife's '02 has some serious brakes. YMMV

do the sport brake upgrade. Friend of mine just did it, maybe he will chime in. big rotors up front and small in the rear, will that upset the balance?

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Starting in 2001 there were 2 different size rotors available on the Miata.

Cars with 15" rims had 10.0" front rotors and 9.9" rear rotors
Cars with 16" rims had 10.6" front rotors and 10.9" rear rotors

How much difference is the VW rotor going to get you since the Miata rotor is just .3" smaller??

Plus wouldn't the larger rear brakes from an LS also help in braking?

I know my wife's '02 has some serious brakes. YMMV

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Is the second set the Sport sizes or ABS cars?

Chris

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Originally Posted by aalvarez04

do the sport brake upgrade. Friend of mine just did it, maybe he will chime in. big rotors up front and small in the rear, will that upset the balance?

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Are you talking about me?
I went against the sport brake upgrade and just went up to the 94-04 nonsport brakes (mine is a 90' - 1.6L brakes)

I read up on it and decided it was the best bang for the buck for me.

Larger rotors will help against fade resistance, but they won't give you shorter stopping distances. Better tires and a more aggressive pad will do that for you, though. Better fluid will help against the fade too.



You can also get some really good deals online and at TDR.
I'm putting new rotors and calipers all around, caliper brackets, HPS pads in the front, HP+ in the rear, and SS lines all together for under $500. Rockauto.com had a clearance sale on the rear rotors for the 94-04 and they were popping them off at $7 each.

Which year car do you have and what are you currently running?

Oh, forgot... I can chime in a little bit about the corrado rotor upgrade, but it was on a different car. They make the same kit for old integras and I was running it for a while. Jumped from a ~9.5" rotor upfront to 11" corrado rotors. Similar setup with the different brackets and centering rings etc.... that particular kit required using a newer generation integra caliper which had a much larger pad.

That car was stripped out and weighed ~1900lbs. It was also FWD and more nose heavy. The brakes locked up very easily, of course the Toyo Proxes4 didn't help much either. However, I could stomp on the brakes at 125mph and come down to 20 in a heartbeat, and I could do it over and over and over again without worrying about the brakes fading. In fact I did it enough times that I snapped a torsion bar in its front suspension.

Anyways, Im sure its somewhat different on the much better miata chassis...maybe some others can chime in.

IIRC..the corrado rotors weighed ~14lbs each. Don't quote me on it though.

Which year car do you have and what are you currently running?[/quote]

I have a 2001, 15" factory wheels, 205/50/15 Nitto neogen tires, factory smaller (nonsport, non abs) brakes, Hawk HP+ front and rear pads, dot4 higher temp fluid, factory rubber lines.

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Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92

Is the second set the Sport sizes or ABS cars?

Chris

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Sport (plus we also have ABS on those sport brakes) rotor size is the same ABS or no ABS! ::Banana::

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Originally Posted by CarCar

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maan1986

Which year car do you have and what are you currently running?

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I have a 2001, 15" factory wheels, 205/50/15 Nitto neogen tires, factory smaller (nonsport, non abs) brakes, Hawk HP+ front and rear pads, dot4 higher temp fluid, factory rubber lines.

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Yeah thats the same size I'm running as of today. New 94-04 rotors, new calipers, hawk HPS front, Hawks hp+ rear, and SS lines, valvoline synthetic brake fluid. After bedding them in and letting them cool, I find that I'm very happy with the setup.

I've driven bmcreider's car and aalverz04's cars before (both sport package) and their brakes have a MUCH stronger initial bite. I remember tapping the brake on Brett's car and coming to a stop. Brett's is non-abs and Andrew's is abs-equipped.

I think the sport w/o abs and upgraded pads might be harder to modulate, but I'll Brett chime in on that. I know he always bitches about Andrew having ABS when he looses to him (OH SNAP!!!! ::BigWhack). The setup I'm running felt really easy to modulate, but I'll need more seat time with it.

I did not realize the VW rotors were so heavy. Are you saying they are 14# each? I am starting to feel I have very little to gain other than upgrading to stainless lines from where I am now.

Yeah, 14lbs each and just confirmed it on autozone's website. I thought it was funny when my rotor weighed more than my rim.

Ok, new plan...6UL 15x8 rims with 225/45/15 Nitto or Hankook tires, stainless brake lines and Motul fluid for what I was going to spend for the brake upgrade. I am hoping to get lighter unsprung weight at all 4 corners with more sticky rubber on the road. It really seems other than the Goodwin 4 wheel big brake kit I would only be making my unsprung weight much heavier (bad) and not getting any real improvement in stopping. For what the latest Goodwin costs I can do rims, tires and lines and still have enough left for some track days.
$640 rims
$110 lines
$450 tires
Now, whatdayadinkuhdat?

I say you can't go wrong with that. You'll need to budget a bit more for the rims - more like $800 with shipping if you get the valve stems and the lug nuts (I'm just sayin'). I don't see upgraded pads in your shopping list, so you might want to call TDR about a set of Hawk HP+ units. As for tires, TreadZone.com has the 225/45 Hankook RS2 on closeout for a stupid-cheap price.

Hop to it! ::Banana::

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Originally Posted by CarCar

Ok, new plan...6UL 15x8 rims with 225/45/15 Nitto or Hankook tires, stainless brake lines and Motul fluid for what I was going to spend for the brake upgrade. I am hoping to get lighter unsprung weight at all 4 corners with more sticky rubber on the road. It really seems other than the Goodwin 4 wheel big brake kit I would only be making my unsprung weight much heavier (bad) and not getting any real improvement in stopping. For what the latest Goodwin costs I can do rims, tires and lines and still have enough left for some track days.
$640 rims
$110 lines
$450 tires
Now, whatdayadinkuhdat?

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Have the HP+'s on now.;)

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Originally Posted by maan1986

Yeah thats the same size I'm running as of today. New 94-04 rotors, new calipers, hawk HPS front, Hawks hp+ rear, and SS lines, valvoline synthetic brake fluid. After bedding them in and letting them cool, I find that I'm very happy with the setup.

I've driven bmcreider's car and aalverz04's cars before (both sport package) and their brakes have a MUCH stronger initial bite. I remember tapping the brake on Brett's car and coming to a stop. Brett's is non-abs and Andrew's is abs-equipped.

I think the sport w/o abs and upgraded pads might be harder to modulate, but I'll Brett chime in on that. I know he always bitches about Andrew having ABS when he looses to him (OH SNAP!!!! ::BigWhack). The setup I'm running felt really easy to modulate, but I'll need more seat time with it.

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I think this thread has already served its purpose, but...

The sport brakes are definitely FTW...but I don't think it's worth the money to buy the parts new.

And, Hawk HP+ own...

And non-ABS is for real men ;).

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Originally Posted by bmcreider

And non-ABS is for real men ;).

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Sounds like someone has been huffing his Rust-Oleum. ;)

Outside of miatamaniac, I question whether alot of you are upgrading out of necessity. Are you driving hard enough on the track to necessitate spending money on bigger brakes?
Are you experiencing brake fade on the track?
Do you know for an absolute fact that you are driving your car 10/10ths?

Here are some facts:
stock 1.8 rotors weigh 10.5#'s
the corrado rotor weighs 13.5#'s
both sets of rotors have the same amount of heat dissipation channels. (37). The corrado rotors channels are larger, allowing more heat to be dissipated.
When compared with heavy sport brakes or light and expensive BBK's, the corrado option is great.

My good friend Andrew, Savington on miata.net and miataturbo, has a black turbocharged '94. When he and I were at Laguna Seca in March, he was having constant braking issues. He was running XP10's, (usually Xp12's) with brake ducts, full interior and 220whp. He had constant brake overheating issues, so bad that he took the XP10's to the backing plates in 3 sessions! Once he upgraded to the corrado rotor, his braking issues were resolved. I know from riding with him that he drives hard and he has alot of track time under his belt, too.

When you can drive your car 10/10ths with horsepower, I fully expect to see brake fade, even on street rubber.
Ask alot of the boosted guys, that run horsepower on the track, that can drive, what happens to street pads after a session in a boosted car.