PAX class at NTAXS events

I was thinking about this today, and figured I would post it up here to see if there was any support for it before actually taking it to seriously.

Essentially, it is similar to the xpro class at ER but for NTAXS. It seems all the regular competitors want to compare their times in order to foster more competition and car/driver development. So in order to have everyone be in the same run group for comparisons there could be a class for the regulars to have their times pax indexed against their SCCA class.

I am just curious if anyone has an opinion about this.

ER does not run the entire class in the same heat, so what good is the comparison if drivers of the same class will run in different heats? Until ER groups classes in the same heat, then any kind of real competition or comparison is useless. For that reason, I just go to ER events for the fun, not the competition.

What if you had a class called "pro"? All ran in the heat(s). Times posted as RAW time, drivers need to determine PAX and results. No awards for pro class. Basically just getting all the cars together in one heat.

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Originally Posted by ken o

What if you had a class called "pro"? All ran in the heat(s). Times posted as RAW time, drivers need to determine PAX and results. No awards for pro class. Basically just getting all the cars together in one heat.

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That would not be fair to the other drivers that are not in the Pro class that have to run in a different heat from their competition. One good way to turn people off of the club is to show favoritism, like that. It would not be an issue if the classes were properly divided into heats.

Pro would a different class. Their time would not count in any other class.

I like the idea. I'd certainly be interested.

I don't see how having a "Pro" class would be any different than having a "Miata" or "S2000" class. Honestly, some of the not-so-serious regulars might appreciate it if the hardcore SCCA types who keep winning S2000 street tire and Class 1 all played in their own class.

Can the software calculate PAX results? Would it be that difficult to set up, provided you knew the base class for all of the participants cars?

No reason to turn the fun local events into another SCCA/ER type event with stuff like PAX and specific classing based on SCCA rulesets. If I want to deal with that stuff I would just run SCCA. My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by altiain

Can the software calculate PAX results? Would it be that difficult to set up, provided you knew the base class for all of the participants cars?

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The software Jimmy has can just barely run the timers. ::Rimshot:

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Originally Posted by jrj512

ER does not run the entire class in the same heat, so what good is the comparison if drivers of the same class will run in different heats? Until ER groups classes in the same heat, then any kind of real competition or comparison is useless. For that reason, I just go to ER events for the fun, not the competition.

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Originally Posted by jrj512

That would not be fair to the other drivers that are not in the Pro class that have to run in a different heat from their competition. One good way to turn people off of the club is to show favoritism, like that. It would not be an issue if the classes were properly divided into heats.

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For some reason, I thought this thread was about ER. Probably because I was also reading an ER thread, too. So, ignore my previous comments.

I have considered a PAX class in the past and it is something that I will continue to think about and explore if we have the ability to easily do this. I think the AXWare will do all of this once I define the PAX amounts.

With the large number of street tire cars at the event. If we did it, I think we should give the stock and SP street tire cars an adjusted PAX. From the talk on SCCAfourms (Andy), I believe that street tires are about 3% slower than Rcomps, so I think a PAX x .975 would be a fair number (a little under 3%). I think this would also be good if ER wants to get more street tire cars to show up for their events. R-comps are so last year ;). Really with the current street tires r-comps seem to be a waste of money. Because of this I believe that ER has alienated a large part of the autocross community with the Rapid PAX class. The guys on street tires don't want to win ER PAX class (well we do) we just want a fair shot.

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Originally Posted by Robert

With the large number of street tire cars at the event. If we did it, I think we should give the stock and SP street tire cars an adjusted PAX. From the talk on SCCAfourms (Andy), I believe that street tires are about 3% slower than Rcomps, so I think a PAX x .975 would be a fair number (a little under 3%). I think this would also be good if ER wants to get more street tire cars to show up for their events. R-comps are so last year ;). Really with the current street tires r-comps seem to be a waste of money. Because of this I believe that ER has alienated a large part of the autocross community with the Rapid PAX class. The guys on street tires don't want to win ER PAX class (well we do) we just want a fair shot.

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Seems like 3% is not enough. On a 60 second course that's less than 2 seconds. My car is way more than 2 seconds faster on A6's vs. Star Specs on a course that long. But of course I'm running R comps this season so let's make it 2% ;)

4% does sound better ;).

Really from the experts, (Andy and Rick Ruth) it should be between 2.5%-3%. Most agree that .975 is a good number.

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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

No reason to turn the fun local events into another SCCA/ER type event with stuff like PAX and specific classing based on SCCA rulesets. If I want to deal with that stuff I would just run SCCA. My 2 cents.

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See I really do not think adding the PAXed class would have this effect. There is nothing to really win, and I find that the enjoyment of the non-SCCA/ER events still lies in whatever messed up camaraderie there is + more seat time for testing.

The fact is, everyone who would be interested in joining this class is already comparing times vs each other, and this would just be a way to have everyone run at the same time.

Also I think clearing out classes 1, 2, and S2000 of the more regular autocrossers would add a level of fun to other competitors in the classes now that they would be more competitive and finish in higher places.

Logistically I don't know if it is do-able, but I feel it could be a good idea.

I'd be in favor of offering a pax-ed "pro" class at the NTAXS events for those interested in competing in that manner. It doesn't hurt anything, and probably will make the drivers with cars that don't fit SCCA classing rules happy. Of course, I will still run against the Corollas and NA's just to be a douche. :)

As for the Tire-pax, I'm ok with implementing it in ER, but the effect on Rapid Pax might be unintended consequences. What happens to ST* cars? We could run in regular rapid pax with our scca pax, but it seems like it would also be fair to run in the tire pax without any additional modifier to our pax. After all, we ARE on street tires. Would we be banned from that version of rapid pax and forced to run only against the R-comp cars? If everone on street tires is in a separate rapid pax, how many drivers are left on r-comps?

3% seems like the max to me. some drivers might be a lot faster on R-comps, but that might be as much a factor of what the r-comps let you get away with, rather than the street tires being that much slower. At A&M, I was within 2 seconds of a national champion driver in a prepped SS Elise on Rcomps on a 70 second course in my NC on RS3's.

I wouldn't want to do it this year, but its worth discussing the idea of creating more than 3 classes (plus R classes) if we can come-up with a way to do it without becoming SCCA-picky. The simplest idea I've heard is to add a "Bone Stock" class and/or a "Novice" class, rather than trying to subdivide the 1,2,3 classes. No series points for either stock or novice, so no motivation to sandbag.

People who show up in a car that has no performance enhancements could opt for the "stock" class and duke it out with whoever else runs there. I wouldn't expect too many people to go there, so it would be mostly non-competitive cars.

Personally, I prefer simply adding a "novice" group that is open to any street tire car, and you graduate to open classing with one win.

For ER we don't have enough cars for 2 PAX classes. I would make the rule that only cars running in Tire class can use the adjusted PAX in the Rapid PAX. If you want to run TCSP that would be fine.

Edit,

I just ran the numbers, using PAX x .975 your pax would be the same as STR.

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Originally Posted by OZMDD

At A&M, I was within 2 seconds of a national champion driver in a prepped SS Elise on Rcomps on a 70 second course in my NC on RS3's.

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Who was it?

Karter Bollman, and I just noticed it was a little more than 2 seconds, not less.

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Originally Posted by OZMDD

Karter Bollman, and I just noticed it was a little more than 2 seconds, not less.

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Darn, wish my car would have been ready. Curious to see how it stacks up againts SS cars now. He's a good driver but I don't think he's won nationals in that car in SS?

I would do a Pro class at BMW events. It would be raw time and you can determine PAX on your own. I have no interest in adding PAX index and Street Tire Pax to the system. It would be a non-trophy class.