TDI takes on LeMans...

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12-13-2005, 11:00 AM
Treibenschnell

TDI takes on LeMans...

This is great for us VWAG TDI fans...

Quote:

Audi look set to become the first manufacturer to win the 24 Hours of Le Mans with a diesel prototype after unveiling the successor of their all-conquering R8, winner of five Le Mans titles, in Paris on Tuesday. The R10 will be powered by an extremely economical 5.5litre V12 twin-turbo TDI engine.

http://img1.eurosport.com//imgbk/car...md-i213443.jpg

LINKIE to story...

LINKIE to more photos...

Quote:

The Le Mans Prototype, with over 650 hp and more than 1,100 Newton metres torque, significantly exceeds the power produced by the majority of previous Audi racing cars – including that of its victorious R8 predecessor.

::Flag:: ::Flag:: ::Flag:: ::Flag:: ::Flag:: ::Flag:: ::Flag:: ::Flag::
12-13-2005, 11:06 AM
tailchaser

It'll be interesting to see if the transmission will withstand the beating when Sebring rolls around in March!
12-13-2005, 11:08 AM
Treibenschnell

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

It'll be interesting to see if the transmission will withstand the beating when Sebring rolls around in March!

Exactly... they've apparently covered all the angles.

Quote:

...but with so much torque, the team have been forced to build a rigid gearbox with fewer gears.

Let's hope their testing gave them some good insight...
12-13-2005, 11:10 AM
tailchaser

The last diesel to run at LeMans did fine in testing, but the drivers were a bit "enthusiastic" during the race and spit gearboxes left and right. I hope the drivers were a bit rougher on the Audi during testing so that such surprises won't happen.

Link to said effort
12-13-2005, 11:31 AM
Treibenschnell

I'd like to hear (or not) this "Flying Carpet" whiz by...
12-13-2005, 11:48 AM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

I'd like to hear (or not) this "Flying Carpet" whiz by...

I may still have some of the LeMans outing somewhere... It was eerily quiet.

My guess would be that the Audi folks have some pretty snazzy electronic tom-foolery in place to limit torque during gear changes and should make an impressive showing. So long as they can use fuel with an anti-foaming agent, I expect some serious butt-kicking to take place.
12-13-2005, 12:10 PM
Treibenschnell

I'll tell you what would really be a kick in the pants (if at all even possible...) would be the same powerplant with a DSG tranny... that much torque and hp always in the best part of the powerband.
12-13-2005, 01:22 PM
altiain

While we're talking about diesels for Le Mans, let's be honest about it - the diesel powered cars are actually predicted to lap as much as twelve seconds per lap slower than their gas-fueled counterparts. However, the governing body allows diesels a much larger fuel tank. Couple that to the better mileage the oil burners are supposed to get, and it's truly a "tortoise beats the hare" type of race, but the diesels wouldn't be competitive if the fuel capacity rules were universal, regardless of their better fuel mileage.
12-13-2005, 01:30 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

I'll tell you what would really be a kick in the pants (if at all even possible...) would be the same powerplant with a DSG tranny... that much torque and hp always in the best part of the powerband.

Err... DSG doesn't allow the engine to continuously operate in the best part of the powerband. A CVT (continuously variable transmission) will, because it infinitely adjusts the drive ratio so that the engine can be run at a fixed rpm regardless of vehicle speed. A DSG transmission still has several discrete ratios, just like a conventional manual. It just has a different means of selecting and engaging these ratios.

The other problem with DSG is gear preselection. While this is all well and good when the computer correctly guesses what gear you want next, it can take a DSG 'box up to a second to select the correct gear if the computer guesses wrong and preselects a gear that you don't want.

Not a big deal for closed circuit racing, since the engineers can map out the required shift pattern for a lap and pre-program the DSG controller with this sequence. Unfortunately, you can't do the same thing in the real world, which is why I'm still not sold on DSG.
12-13-2005, 02:23 PM
tailchaser

Ummmm...

Can you point a link at the fuel allowance for diesels?

The rules say:
6.5.1 - 90 litres maximum on board whatever the outside ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure.

Diesels can run up to 5.5 L forced induction (instead of the 4.0 L limit for gassers)

Diesels run intake restricters at 39.9mm (up from 32.4 mm for gassers)

Diesels run up to 2.94 bar (at 5.5 L displacement compared to a max 1.5 bar manifold pressure for gassers)
If the weather is particularly warm, then I suppose the diesel crowd has a small advantage since diesel fuel does not expand as much in relation to temperature, so 90L of fuel will have an even greater energy content (along with added weight).

Now this is interesting... Sign me up for a closed car, please...

14.1.9 – Temperature inside the cockpit (closed car) :
The ambient temperature around the driver must not be higher than 30°C (86°F) whatever the temperature on the outside when the car is in motion. After a stop, the temperature must go back down to this value in 5 minutes maximum. An efficient air conditioning system comprising a compressor, a condenser, a pressure reducer and an evaporator is compulsory for the closed cars. It must be described on the homologation form and approved by the ACO.
12-13-2005, 02:51 PM
altiain

Is that cockpit temp rule a new one? I know the C5-Rs - which have run rahter successfully at Le Mans - were notorious for brutal cockpit temperatures.
12-13-2005, 02:54 PM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

Is that cockpit temp rule a new one? I know the C5-Rs - which have run rahter successfully at Le Mans - were notorious for brutal cockpit temperatures.

I'm guessing it is (it's in red -- and, if so, the only rule change for 2006), but it's in the LMP rules. I'll take a peek at the GT rules.

Looks like lots of changes (minor) for GT in 2006. They're looking out for drivers...

5.8.4. - Noise level :
Dynamic sound readings will be taken during the 2006
events. The method of measurement and the results will be
given to the competitors for information.
As from as 01/01/2007 the sound emitted from each car will
must not exceed 113 dbA during the qualifying practices and
the race. The measurement will be made at 15 meters from
the edge of the track.

14.6 – Temperature inside the cockpit :
The ambient temperature around the driver must not be higher
than 30°C (86°F) whatever the temperature on the outside when
the car is in motion. After a stop, the temperature must go back
down to this value in 5 minutes maximum.
An efficient air conditioning system comprising a compressor, a
condenser, a pressure reducer and an evaporator is compulsory
for the closed cars. It must be described on the homologation
form and approved by the ACO.

From the appendix:

For front engine cars equipped with an air conditioning system, the following restrictors diameter must be
increased by :
- 0.5 mm for 1 restrictor ; ;
- 0.3 mm for 2 restrictors ;

And no big surprise...

Aston Martin DB9 Coupe (ACO homologation N°: LMGT1-01) :
- Addition of 25 Kg to their minimum weight ;
Corvette C6/ZO6 (ACO homologation N°: LMGT1-02) :
- Addition of 25 Kg to their minimum weight ;
12-13-2005, 03:06 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

Ummmm...

Can you point a link at the fuel allowance for diesels?

Perhaps I stand corrected. :scratch:

I could have sworn I've read something to the effect that diesels got a higher allowed fuel capacity somewhere (and in the last 48 hours), but I can't track it down so I'll have to retract my statement about capacity advantages for the moment.

I still stand on my coments about DSG and diesel lap times, however. ::Bleh::
12-13-2005, 03:23 PM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

Perhaps I stand corrected. :scratch:

I could have sworn I've read something to the effect that diesels got a higher allowed fuel capacity somewhere (and in the last 48 hours), but I can't track it down so I'll have to retract my statement about capacity advantages for the moment.

I still stand on my coments about DSG and diesel lap times, however. ::Bleh::

If the allowable fuel volume is equal, then the diesels get 10% more energy content in the tank. Could be some confused journalistic liberty...

DSG? You're bang on, particularly since an ACO homologated DSG would have to operate without any electronics according to current rules. No argument from me. I also shudder to think what 850 lb/ft of torque would do to concentric wet clutches over 24 hours...

Diesel lap times? We'll see... On a track like Le Mans, I fully expect to see the fast trap times on Mulsanne posted by Audi. Whether they match last year's pace on the rest of the track depends largely upon whether they can make full use of the gearbox or have to lug 4th through the slow stuff to keep things in one piece.

Since I'm looking at rules, someone needs to do the math... how much air is that 5.5L V-12 going to move at 3 atmospheres at 6,000 RPM.
12-13-2005, 04:06 PM
icepenguin66

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

It'll be interesting to see if the transmission will withstand the beating when Sebring rolls around in March!

eh, that doesn't matter, they'll just replace the entire thing like a regular pitstop again!
12-13-2005, 04:09 PM
Treibenschnell

Ooopp... sorry, you're right... I meant CVT.
12-13-2005, 04:14 PM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by icepenguin66

eh, that doesn't matter, they'll just replace the entire thing like a regular pitstop again!

Rules don't allow it anymore...

Regarding CVT... probably overkill, given what the torque curve of a "stock" V10 diesel looks like. Should be even flatter on a 12.
http://www.rototestinstitute.org/spe...02-kW-Nm-C.png
12-15-2005, 01:41 AM
icepenguin66

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

Rules don't allow it anymore...

hmm...interesting. I haven't kept up with anything this year!
12-15-2005, 09:12 AM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by icepenguin66

hmm...interesting. I haven't kept up with anything this year!

Apparently the organizers weren't real amused with the "disposable gearbox" strategy. IIRC, Audi developed a technique where they could rebuild the box in under 12 minutes, though.
12-16-2005, 05:17 AM
icepenguin66

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

Apparently the organizers weren't real amused with the "disposable gearbox" strategy. IIRC, Audi developed a technique where they could rebuild the box in under 12 minutes, though.

Just hope they don't follow Formula 1's steps and shoot themselves in the foot in an attempt to even the field. :rolleyes:

I need to make it to another race, the ALMS events are awesome!