Seriously in the market for a Super/Turbo charger system

I'm going to be ordering the kit sometime next week. I'm currently torn between the TDR M45/Intercooler kit and the FM VoodooII system. I understand most of the pros and cons of each for the most part however I'll list'em here add to it if I missed please :) and throw in opinions if you have them :)

Also I've never driven a Turbocharged Gasoline vehicle. I have driven a Supercharged one my Saturn Ion Redline is supercharged

Supercharger
Pro-
Instant Power
Seems like they generate very flat torque curves
Less in depth install

Cons-
Limited Power Potential
Runs from an Engine driven belt which saps power


Turbocharger
Pros-
Runs off of engine waste gasses
More power potential

Cons-
More in depth install
Seems to have (from dyno graphs) more peaky type power


That's all I can think of right now. Keep in mind I'm not looking for huge power out of this car anywhere from 140ish to 200ish would be cool with me (yeah I know that's a big range lol) but I'm also looking to minimize any time on the dyno if any and make tuning somewhat of a cinch.

I was also glancing at the BEGi systems and you can throw a Megasquirt fueling option in there with it. Which intices me. :)

Thanks for any help guys,
Josh

Add local support to supercharger pro and turbo con. Being able to take the car over to TDR if you have a problem can be priceless if you need it.

tdr did my 02 car and i have never had a single problem, i've ragged the car on and off the track, ran it 10/10 in 105* heat at msr 8 20 min sessions. i'm pretty sure most turbos you have to dial back the power at the track to keep from over heating but on the street you can put down some big power and a diy turbo is a lot cheaper.

What is the goal? Auto-x, track toy, daily driver? Is it for the '92 in your sig? If so, consider the possible needs for further upgrades (clutch, rear end, rad, etc..). Do you turn your own wrenches?

Good luck. I spent over a year on the fence trying to decide what you are currently working on. Read online till my eyes bled, talked to lots of folks and vendors yada, yada. In the end, I did the same as jeff-man. With the exact same results.

Turbos will put down "much" more power at the cost of more tinkering. SC is set and forget. (not talking factory turbo or SC). I've never been behind the wheel of a mp45 or a turbo miata so I can't compare my mp62 to them. On track, turbos pull me with ease. But I get more seat time cause I'm not missing sessions working on my car, I'm driving it. (although the turbo guys have been catching up on the reliability bits from what I've read and observed).

If it had to do it all over again, I'd go the same way in a heartbeat. Just two cents worth cause I've been where you are right now.
Either way, boost is fun. Can't go wrong with either (depending on what your goal is)...
SA

Intended use will be daily driver/autocross/back road carver. Its got upgraded suspension already, along with chassis bracing and Hawk brake pads, brand new radiator. The clutch was sopousedly done before I got it but if it goes out I'm prepared to replace it. I spin all my own wrenches. I'm leaning towards supercharged due to the points u pointed out six set and leave it. And I've had good experience with my supercharged Saturn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeepinbanditrider

Supercharger
Pro-
Instant Power
Seems like they generate very flat torque curves
Less in depth install

Cons-
Limited Power Potential
Runs from an Engine driven belt which saps power


Turbocharger
Pros-
Runs off of engine waste gasses
More power potential

Cons-
More in depth install
Seems to have (from dyno graphs) more peaky type power


That's all I can think of right now. Keep in mind I'm not looking for huge power out of this car anywhere from 140ish to 200ish would be cool with me (yeah I know that's a big range lol) but I'm also looking to minimize any time on the dyno if any and make tuning somewhat of a cinch.

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Looks like you're getting into the game with a good handle on what's good or bad about both types of setups. You're already ahead of the curve as far as that goes. :) Power goals are also right inline with the M45 or Voodoo setup.

Both of the systems you mention come with basic tuning electronics, be that a Voodoo box or Powercard. Dyno/tune time won't be a big deal in either case.

The one thing I'll note is that the peaky behavior of some turbo systems will vary in large part on turbo sizing. Get yourself set up with a GT2554 and you'll have the instant on feeling you might get from a blower...but they seem to run out of air at the top end. From my reading, either this or the 2560 would be a good, basic size to use on a 1.6 car that's going to be used as you want to do: DD, some auto-x, and weekend fun.

So, you already have a fairly fresh clutch. This is good. However, if it's an OE-style clutch, you'll need to baby it a bit to get decent life out of it with boost. Also, look to upgrade your car's differential to a 7" rear from a 1.8 car. The 6" rear in the early cars can self-destruct on stock power...though there are certainly folks who have seen them last a while with 200whp. Like with a stock clutch, you'll need to be a little cautious about how you treat the car until the rear gets replaced.

Already looking for low cost Torsen rear ends to drop into the car. I'll find one and then drop it in the corner of the shop till my stocker grenades lol.

Thanks for all the replies guys keep'em coming I've still got a few days before I order so the more info the better :)

Well I should probably add that my car was the prototype for the TDR Intercooler on a 1.6 M45. I have dynoed at 185 RWHP. I have swapped to a torsen and put a ACT clutch in to handle the power. Here is a list of what I have done and what affect it had to it to give you an idea of what it takes to get in that territory:

1.6, cat-back exhaust, timing bump, K&N panel filter- 95 rwhp
Added header and JRSC- 126 rwhp
Added big boost kit- 138 rwhp
Added Track Dog Intercooler- 152 rwhp
Added LINK ECU, 440 injectors, WBO2- 172 rwhp
Added 1.8 nose pulley, custom intake with K&N cone filter- 185 rwhp

A couple notes: The JRSC kit I have came with an AFPR (auxiliary fuel pressure regulator), and this was used to give enough fuel under boost by force feeding the fuel through the injectors. That has since been replaced by the power card (that increases the injector duty cycle) in the new kits. The power card allows for a smoother and more controlled fuel delivery (runs better) but it can't deliver as much fuel as the AFPR did. This means you can run more boost with the AFPR but have better driveability with the power card. Regardless, neither will get you in to the powere territory I am in. For that, you need bigger injectors and a full ECU to control them.

Looks like the intercooled kit and maybe a big boost kit will get me where I want to be or in the ballpark anyway. Probably add a header while I'm in there.

I'm also more than willing to go the used route. Here are two systems I found over on the pointy board's classified pages. This will give me some spare money to do body work on this car that it needs to start looking sharp.

http://www.miata.net/cgi-bin/isc/cla...revaction=show

http://www.miata.net/cgi-bin/isc/cla...revaction=show

If you can hold out a bit longer, I will have a near-complete FM2 kit for a 1.6l that I have been holding off selling since about the day I got it...not to ruin a potential sale, but I'll gladly put my headache into your car ;) I just have to wait till I get my Helicoils in (ordered a few days ago) and exhaust manifold studs/nuts (ordering in a few minutes). It will be short the pieces I need to put my good stuff back in, but still much less than getting it elsewhere.

I'll also offer you a ride (maybe a drive, depending on how I feel) in the car with the kit before I pull it off for good. But it's missing 2 exhaust studs, and I haven't tuned the boost since I moved here (different altitude), but it'll give you a decent idea of what that setup feels like.

Sounds like a possible plan. How many parts is it missing? What's been a headache with the kit?

you don't live that far from me either I'm currently living in Saginaw so you're just a few minutes away.

And thanks for the offer :D Hopefully we can work something out.

RE: What's been a headache with the kit?
Should be phrased "What actually isn't a complete piece of shit about the kit?" I typed out a short list...but it kept getting longer and longer and angrier and angrier, so I'll just leave it at I will never buy another FM product again. Most of the major issues have been corrected by myself, so it's really a moot conversation anyway.

As to what it would be missing, we can work that out as well. I think the best bet would be to discuss everything in person, as it can be as complete or barebones as you want. I'll shoot you a PM in about an hour - lunch time!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob®

RE: What's been a headache with the kit?
Should be phrased "What actually isn't a complete piece of shit about the kit?" I typed out a short list...but it kept getting longer and longer and angrier and angrier, so I'll just leave it at I will never buy another FM product again. Most of the major issues have been corrected by myself, so it's really a moot conversation anyway.

As to what it would be missing, we can work that out as well. I think the best bet would be to discuss everything in person, as it can be as complete or barebones as you want. I'll shoot you a PM in about an hour - lunch time!

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Out of curiosity, are we talking about the OLD FM Kit (designed by BEGI, with FM adding an ECU and selling it) or the new FM kit (designed and sold by FM)?

The old kit...the one that the downpipe would crack in about 100 miles and completely separate in 1,000. I've had it on the car in various configurations since 2003. I had that in the list of issues I typed out, but failed to put it back in when I deleted all that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob®

The old kit...the one that the downpipe would crack in about 100 miles and completely separate in 1,000. I've had it on the car in various configurations since 2003. I had that in the list of issues I typed out, but failed to put it back in when I deleted all that.

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Gotcha. There did seem to be a lot of issues with those old kits. I have not heard nearly as much about problems with their new in-house kit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titus

Gotcha. There did seem to be a lot of issues with those old kits. I have not heard nearly as much about problems with their new in-house kit.

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Nor have I, which is awesome on their part.

Besides those 4 nuts backing off, most of the major bugs were worked out on mine. It's ugly and not the most efficient (~6 feet of intercooler piping...really??), but it's been trouble free for the last 10k miles or so. I had no worries driving it straight from Syracuse, NY to Orlando, FL only stopping for gas. And no worries again driving straight from Orlando to Euless, so that's gotta say something.

Everybody has their own opinion and personal ranking of important characteristics (price, local vendor, response, upgradeablity, etc.). IMO, your best bet is a new FM system. When the "more power" bug bites (and it WILL), you have a clear and proven path to the most trouble-free system. An SC has only so far to go before you're past its potential. The FM system can be turned up past my potential. I suggest you call both shops (TDR and FM) and discuss your choices with them (both choices) and get their input. I also strongly suggest you try to get a ride (preferably a drive) in one of each. If you can't find one of each here, be sure to ask TDR and FM if they can put you in touch with local owners.

I would log on to miataturbo.net and read for a long time. If it was me I would be running a vband setup like Trey's car. I believe absurdflow did his manifold, but artech can do nice pieces as well. I'd run an absurdflow manifold, china charger, 3in exhaust, ebay intercooler, and megasquirt.

M45 and TDR intercooler is on it's way to my house. Hopefully by first part of next week I'll be driving a boosted miata :)

Sweet!

Good job picking up Gary's stuff. After all I've been through, if I knew what to do the first time I'd do it again. If I had to buy two turbo kits again, I would not.

I'm antsy lol everything should be into the house on Thurs. BUT I won't be able to start work till Sunday evening :( Stupid drill weekend. On the plus side I got my expansion valve in today and my AC works!! Nothing like 45 degree air coming out of the vents :D

Sorry my friend but I have some bad news for you. You purchased your SC and our TDR intercooler from Moss Motors. The M45 superchargers they sell are CARB certified which means they come with a NON-Adjustable fuel card that will not allow you to add more boost. Also their setup includes there belt tensioner that does not work well with high boost setups due to the too small of adjustment.

Our TDR M45 setups are about $200 more than from Moss, but include ADJUSTABLE fuel card $295 and our TDR belt tensioner $205. These parts will be necessary to go beyond the stock boost. The TDR intercoolers we drop ship for Moss and we have not shipped yet. Suggest if you might call us and we can talk about your options if you plan on runing the best power potential with this setup, I wish you would have called us before you placed your order.

Give me a call if you would like to talk about your options.

Gary

Damn that sucks :( looks like I'm going to have to come up with another 500 bucks. I'm basically looking for anywhere from 150 to 200 HP. It's a big range but I'm flexible. Oh well what's done is done live and learn.

She LIVES!!

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Unfortunatly we ran out of time to get the TDR intercooler in so we slapped the plastic tube on it timed it to 6* BTDC and I've put the intercooler on hold as a seperate project for the near future before summer kicks in full tilt.

Congrats!

Very Cool!

Congrats! Boost is fun!

Sweet! Welcome to the darkside

It already needs more boost lol. It's got great power compared to what it once had by the SOTP dyno. I'm going to try to get it on a dyno here soon somewhere close by and check on my power output after I get the intercooler in.

One note on Figure 6.4 on Page 10 of the instructions if you look at where they show to mount the throttle cable bracket I had to move it to the inside of the spacer to function with my car. On the far end of the spacer the cable had so much slack that you couldn't even get the throttle valve to move with the pedal on the floor. After moving it though it worked perfectly with some adjustment of the cable.

http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...ns/999-156.pdf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeepinbanditrider

I'm going to try to get it on a dyno here soon somewhere close by and check on my power output after I get the intercooler in.

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Not to try to hijack this thread, but where are you planning on going? I don't need a tune, just a few runs with my new setup for a before/after. I tried calling a few places when I was in Euless, but got no love.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob®

Not to try to hijack this thread, but where are you planning on going? I don't need a tune, just a few runs with my new setup for a before/after. I tried calling a few places when I was in Euless, but got no love.

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How about http://www.atsracing.net/dyno.htm? They did a nice job with our Dyno Day a few months ago.

Thanks. They were one of the places I called. I'm pretty sure that's the one that didn't answer or have a machine. When I looked at the site I saw no updates since 2008, so I just figured they closed up shop or something. Who knows.

I will give them another shout. Thanks

Another recomendation for ATS. They are an MR2 shop, but the owner's wife used to have a Miata, and they bought their dyno from Flyin Miata. There is also a great Honda tuner shop in Garland that I have used a few times with TrackDog Racing, but that may be too far a drive for you westsiders.

I have heard mixed reviews on Alamo, but have never been their personally. There is also a place I used on Jupiter in Richardson that I would NOT recomend.

Any experience with that Dynosaur or whatever place? It's like 4 miles from me IIRC. I want to say it's the Supra place from back in the day, but I thought they went out of business? The shop looked tiny and not like I would have expected it to...if it really is/was the Supra shop I'm thinking.



EDIT: It seems that is the shop I was thinking. Go figure.

I think I am going to take mine to ATS, nothing to tune except the MBC but see how much boost I can run with safe a/f and no ping. I had a CS once and took it over there, good guys..

Buck

I haven't decided yet. Need to call around like Gary said earlier in this thread the power card I have is non-adjustable :( so I'm just going to be doing this for some kind of baseline and to make sure I"m not running too lean on this Cali tuned card.

Not to thread jack further, but like Buck, I'd love to get my boost set a bit better. Titus, which shop in garland are you talking about? (jotech I assume?)

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Originally Posted by jeepinbanditrider

I'm just going to be doing this for some kind of baseline and to make sure I"m not running too lean.

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Same here. I'm fully adjustable, but I'm just looking for a baseline number too. That, and I took my WBO2 sensor/display out to redo it a bit, so I want to be sure my new stuff isn't too lean - should flow a hell of a lot better than before - I know I won't get around to putting the WB stuff in again for awhile.