Apex 1.7 CW MSR 10/10/09

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Originally Posted by Kestrel

For those of you who have done MSR 1.7 clockwise, what corners are the "watch-out" corners going this direction? I'm going out to a Maverick PCA DE this weekend, and I've never done MSR clockwise. Any tips, pointers, advice is much appreciated!

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The 1.7 is a lot of fun CW. I personally like CW better than CCW.

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Originally Posted by ken o

Horseshoe is downhill and off camber. There is a tendency to overshoot this because of the speed you carry through from Big Bend, Tombstone, and Boot Hill.

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A couple of notes on the Tombstone-Boot Hill-Horseshoe complex:

• Going CW, you should approach Tombstone-Boot Hill the exact opposite that you would CCW – You shouldn’t come all the way across to the apex at Tombstone (about 2/3rds of the way in, depending on the car), but you need to hit the track out point far left for a good line into Boot Hill.
• You will go all the way to the apex in Boot Hill – this is critical. Miss this apex and you’ll run off wide at the track out point. Get this right and you can carry a lot of speed into Horseshoe.
• Do it right, and Tombstone-Boot Hill is one big arc (just like CCW). Set the wheel and use the throttle to adjust your line through this complex.
• Carry your speed all the way through the track out of Boot Hill, then square the car up and brake hard for the entrance to Horseshoe.
• Horseshoe is a really late apex going this way. You want to stay right as you track out of Horseshoe, then turn in a little early in Buzzard Neck, which is a slightly increasing radius going CW.

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Originally Posted by ken o

Wagon Wheel has a bad dip that can unsettle the car on exit.

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I think ken o means Little Bend? Little Bend definitely has a bump past the apex that can unsettle the car.

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Originally Posted by ken o

Ricochet can be taken a lot faster then you will take it the first couple of times. But be cautious. The worker station is not in the greatest place for a run off.

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If there is standing water on the inside straight, be very careful coming into Ricochet. The track drains across the end of the inside straight going CW, which leaves standing water in the braking zone for Ricochet. Last weekend we ran this configuration, and there was a lot of drama in this corner – brake too late and the car will hydroplane/understeer off to the outside. Try to get on the gas too early in a RWD car and the car will snap spin off to the inside. The camber drops away as you come up the hill into Ricochet, which just exacerbates the problem trying to put the power down off the apex (conversely, camber increases going down the hill CCW, which is why you can carry a lot more speed through here than most people are aware).

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Originally Posted by ken o

Wagon Wheel is another downhill dive.

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Wagon Wheel is fun. If Ricochet is dry you can carry a lot of speed into Wagon Wheel, so watch your braking. Most people brake way too early here.

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Originally Posted by ken o

Rattlesnake is easier in this direction.

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That’s a matter of opinion. :wink: I find it harder this way. The last right-left kink is crucial to maximizing exit speed onto the front straight. Brake check or lift at the top of the hill, late apex the right hander, then a big, smooth arc through the left hander and use all the track coming out onto the main straight.

Have fun!

Fantastic information altiain. Thanks very much for taking the time to write all that up!

I think ken o means Little Bend? Little Bend definitely has a bump past the apex that can unsettle the car. -- You're right.

The bump in Buzzard Neck is the one I was thinking about.

Rattlesnakeis fun because you accelerate out of it after the tight turn to the right. On exit you can swing out wide and power steer out.

Well, the weekend at MSR going CW around the the 1.7 track was a ton of fun! And I can't thank ya'll enough for the information on running the track -- altian's description of the Tombstone - Boot Hill - Horseshoe complex was particularly helpful. I really felt that I got that group of corners pretty well, and the whole "one arc through Tombstone - Boot Hill" thing was spot on!

I also felt like I nailed Wagon Wheel and Rattlesnake, taking a tighter line through Wagon Wheel than most. My instructor (I had one with me on my first session) showed me the line saying that with the balance of the Cayman, I might be able to make the line work... and it really did! I stayed pretty much on the seam in the middle of Wagon Wheel, then pinched the first right-hand hard. That seemed to help me to not carry too much speed into the next left-hander (#4), so I was then able to pull in the last right-hander (#3) and then power out of the Rattlesnake complex's last corner (#2) in a nice sweeping arc on to that long straight leading to Big Bend.

As for which corners I didn't do so well (or at least, not consistently), I was a little tenative at Ricochet all day, and had to work pretty hard at Buzzard's Neck, as I tended to early apex that just a little. And I found Little Bend to have a little "pucker factor" each time I went through as the car really wants to slide "up" the track as you apply power past the apex. A number of cars went off track there as they pushed too hard and either had the back in come around or they went two wheels off on the right and then tried to "save it" by jerking the wheel back to the left.

A Cayman S driver loaned me his PerformanceBox (http://www.performancebox.co.uk/) data logger for one session, and I pulled a 1:30:2 as my best time that session. I have no idea if that is good or not, but I beat his best time by about 3 seconds. My tires had started fading -- I was showing a little cord on my right front tire -- and traffic was heavy during many of the laps, so I'm guessing I left a mid 1:28 out there somewhere.

It's been a while since I drove MSR at all, but I think I may like clockwise better than counter-clockwise. I really enjoyed the weekend -- except that my run group must have had 512 cars on the track at a time. OK, more like 25+, but it made for a number of "trains" as slower cars simply wouldn't get the bloody hell out of the way. I mean, why would you even want someone constantly flying up your tailpipe? How much fun can that be? ::Censor::

Anyway, when the track was clear, or I had another car in my sights... man, was that fun. I really enjoyed some great battles with 3 GT3s.

FWIW - On Kumho XS I ran a high 1:26 CW.

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Originally Posted by ken o

FWIW - On Kumho XS I ran a high 1:26 CW.

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Thanks for the reference point. Hummm... so I was pretty slow. :( I was running in the yellow group with PCA - middle group, so most people are supposed to know how to drive pretty well - and I was passing a ton of people. I only remember being passed by a Porsche Turbo and one SPBOX, so I figured I was reasonably quick. I guess we were all just really slow ;)

Well, it was fun anyway, and I knew I still had lots to learn. I'm not sure I could find 4 seconds out there, but it's good to know it's out there somewhere!

I wouldn't call that slow. I'd call Ken fast. Sounds like you were going pretty quick to me. Congrats! Wish I coulda been there for that one. I'm eager to try the clockwise too but decided on Harris Hill for my next track day.

FWIW, I did the 1.7 CW @ 1:31 or so (last December). It was my first/only time CW and my 2nd time on the track ever.

I was in the green group, and was like you blowing past everyone else in the session.

I think my best lap time on the 1.7CW is in the high 1:26/low 1:27 range on R888s. I was hoping to improve on that last week with the new suspension, but Mother Nature wasn't cooperative... :(

Results form PCA TT on the 1.7CW. See what other P cars ran. The TT was tough to get a fast lap in. You only got 3 laps to get in a groove. I ran a 1:27.5 on XS.

http://www.here-ugo.com/2009TT4/2009TT4ResultsP2.htm

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Originally Posted by ken o

FWIW - On Kumho XS I ran a high 1:26 CW.

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You go boy!!!

You go boy!!! lol

I always suggest to my students when you get stuck behind someone who won't give a pass signal to come into the hot pit lane. Let the steward know you're looking for some spacing, and usually they'll get you back out on track in a good spot.

Better to lose a minute in the pit than a whole session due to frustration.

So true

The yellow group had one idiot that simply would not let people pass. It was a dark-blue Ruf Turbo convertible with about 1.3million HP. I would be all over him in the corners -- I mean within 2 feet in Rattlesnake, where the corner workers would flash him the blue/yellow flag (which he'd promptly ignore) -- but once we'd get to the straight, he'd just floor it and not let me by. By the time we'd hit Boot Hill, I'd be up his tailpipe again as he'd lock up the brakes, smoke his tires, and miss the apex by about 12 feet. Lap after lap. He almost lost it coming out of Little Bend trying desperately to stay ahead of me as he got his right side wheels off and then jerked the steering wheel back to the left to try and compensate. He managed to save it, but not without a ton of drama.

The good news is, I had an instructor in a GT3 mixed up in the mess as well, and after the session he took this moronic "driver" aside and told him in no uncertain terms to let faster drivers by, even if his car is faster in the straights. :clap:

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Originally Posted by altiain

I always suggest to my students when you get stuck behind someone who won't give a pass signal to come into the hot pit lane.

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Excellent advice. For Ruf-Boy, I just made sure I went out ahead of him for the rest of the sessions... problem solved!
:burnrubr:

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Originally Posted by Kestrel

Excellent advice. For Ruf-Boy, I just made sure I went out ahead of him for the rest of the sessions... problem solved!
:burnrubr:

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I always end up catching those people either after the warm up lap or when I'm 15 minutes into a session :(

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Originally Posted by altiain

I always suggest to my students when you get stuck behind someone who won't give a pass signal to come into the hot pit lane.

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Whats wrong with a little rub....................and tug.......

^^^^nothing

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Originally Posted by altiain

I always suggest to my students when you get stuck behind someone who won't give a pass signal to come into the hot pit lane. Let the steward know you're looking for some spacing, and usually they'll get you back out on track in a good spot.

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Funny, I never do that. I always have my students start honking and flashing their lights, so when the person in front starts driving with their rearview mirror, they spin. That always solves the problem!! ;) J/K

Good advice as usual, Iain.

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Originally Posted by altiain

I always suggest to my students when you get stuck behind someone who won't give a pass signal to come into the hot pit lane.

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Ruf-Boy was in Group 1 and I was in Group 3. I just jumped groups, and pulled in the group 1 slot ahead of him. Jan (Grid Control) kinda looked liked she'd say something, but she just smiled and let me go. If she had asked, I would have told her exactly why I was "butting in", and I'm sure she would have understood.