So I got out of Jail yesterday...

I understand that you are still butthurt over what happened, but you had an opportunity to change the outcome early on. Next time ask WHY and let THEM do the explaining instead of trying to tell them what they are or are not going to do. That rarely ends well (as you found out).

Sure, you may win this in court, but what are you really winning? You still got arrested, missed work, have to go to court, etc. For what? So you can prove what most people already know...some officers abuse their power. Ok.

It has to start somewhere. I'm from a law enforcement family but all you have to do is look at the news everyday and see police abusing power all over the US. IMO it's been getting out of hand if all the good cops I hear about all the time aren't willing to step up and do some internal policing of their brothers in blue that want to bend or break not only laws but the Constitution then who is going to?

Yeah we can lay down obey everything they say at all times and that will get us nowhere but on a slippery slope which I think we are already on.

If you give a mouse a cookie.............................

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Originally Posted by MiataMike

Please enlighten me as to what is in my first post.

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Arguing with a police officer.

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Originally Posted by driftdevil

MadMonkey, If you have ever had a nail in a bike tire then you would understand why he was pissed. I have and at damn near $200 a pop it will get you blood boiling as well as not wanting to ride on it. Yes if he was not told what he was being arrested for and the fact that they could plainly see that he was having problems with the bike then they did a no no. Any cop with half a brain would tell you that and would try to help versus being a dick. It sounds like it was defused till the sargant showed up and had to throw his weight around.

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I understand the frustration, believe me (heck, I've wrecked a bike). The point is that arguing with a police officer, ESPECIALLY when he's already being a jerk, will never, ever accomplish anything. I've never seen one person win that argument, because like it or not, a cop can screw you over whenever he wants. I have nothing against them, but like every occupation there are the good and bad. When something like this happens, you pretty much have to explain your problem, let them do what they're going to do, and take your case to higher authority.

Oy Vey. Where to start?

1. Stop being an ass to cops. Your attitude during a traffic stop ranks pretty high on the list of determining factors when law enforcement is trying to figure out what to do with you. Remember this: they don't know if you're on drugs or not, they don't know if you just escaped from Terrell State Hospital, they don't know if you're armed or not, etcetera ad nauseum. Be courteous and treat the officer with respect, and you get respect in return. Act like a jerk, and they start looking for ways for your day to go from bad to worse as quickly as possible.

1a. It doesn't matter what the cop does or says to you while you're on the side of the road. Even if it's illegal as hell, that doesn't give you the right to resist. You'll have your day in court and so will he. Cops who abuse their power get their comeuppance.

2. The Bill of Rights. Ah, that sacred list of things the government can't do to you. How shall I say this... your constitutional rights weren't violated. Let's start with the 4th: Unreasonable Search and Seizure. To put it simply, this is a non-issue. Your bike wasn't towed until after you were arrested, nothing was searched, and your personal effects weren't 'seized'. I had an entire class on nothing but Arrest, Search and Seizure in the academy and nothing they did with regards to towing the bike after you were detained was extralegal.

2a. Now for the 5th: I'd like to hear your explanation as to how presenting a photo ID is self incrimination. Is it illegal to have photo ID? How is showing ID going to prove you committed a crime? It's positive identification. That's all. THey just want to know who you are. You know, so they can call you by your name instead of 'hey douchebag.' Furthermore, Texas State law requires you to ID yourself when requested. Especially during traffic stops, where the only probable cause they need is "do you have a driver's license?"

You fucked up as soon as you copped a 'tude with the officer. You fucked up again when you told him he couldn't see your ID. You fucked up a 3rd time when you confirmed your idiocy to the sergeant. Shame on you. Being a sanctimonious jackass, while not illegal, is not going to improve your situation when talking to police officers.

Now, since I'm an equal opportunity harasser, I'll dump on DPD for a while. There's a reason they're the laughingstock of the DFW metro law enforcement circles, and the events of the last few months have only cemented that position. This kind of behavior isn't unusual. Still doesn't excuse your behavior though.

1. The cop fucked up when he stopped. He should've kept on going. He fucked up again when he told you to move the bike. If the bike was truly on the shoulder (as in, outside of the solid line, in the area designated for emergency stops), he had no reason to stop other than to say "do yo need any assistance?" He fucked up even further when he responded to your attitude with even more attitude. He fucked up royally when he filed the charge at Sterrett. I'll get to that later.

He did NOT fuck up when he arrested you. You failed to present ID to a peace officer upon request. And stop quoting Hiibel v. Nevada. That case hasn't been fully adjudicated yet, and until it does, it has no bearing on this discussion. Regardless of what you think about your constitutional rights, until the law is overturned in Texas or ruled unconstitutional by a 5-4 or greater vote by the SCOTUS, YOU MUST PRESENT ID AT THE REQUEST OF AN OFFICER. Period. There's decades' worth of established case law and statutes and Texas Supreme Court decisions that have affirmed this. Start with Section 521.025 of the Transportation Code ("License to be Carried and Exhibited on Demand, Criminal Penalty") and the Terry vs. Ohio case, and then go from there. Your little paragraph down there about "Safety" jumps to far too many conclusions without any data to back it up. I won't even get into the intentional mis-quoting of the Terry v. Ohio decision. It sounds like it was pulled right off the ACLU website (amirite?). I'll let you in on a little secret. The ACLU is the PETA of the legal world. They're just slightly more respectable than the NAACP. No one takes them seriously anymore because their positions are too extreme even for libertarians.

He fucked up big when he filed the charge. Pedestrian in Roadway is not the proper charge, as you were not IN the roadway and were not a pedestrian. You were on the shoulder, accompanied by your vehicle. If you never crossed the solid line and stepped into the road where the traffic travels (doing it after the cops block off the road doesn't count), there's no offense. Period. I suspect he was just pissed off and pulled it out of his ass when he wrote it on the book-in sheet. Now he'll have to defend that decision in court. State law expressly allows driving on an improved shoulder in your situation. Specifically, Transportation Code Subchapter B Section 545.058(A)(4).

As far as your Miranda Rights go, you weren't questioned during the investigation of a criminal offense. No Miranda for you. The cop shows lied to you. They don't need to mirandize you as soon as the handcuffs go on, only before questioning starts. And 'questioning' means "did you see the guy with the gun?" not "can I see your ID?" There's too much case law on this one to quote, so I'll let your contact at the ACLU fill you in on that one. And no, they don't have to tell you the offense when they slap the handcuffs on either. That's what arraignment is for, and yes, sometimes that takes a while. I don't know if you noticed or not, but there's a lot of people waiting to be arraigned. It's first-come first-served when it's time to see the judge. And no, waiting a few hours to see a judge doesn't violate the 6th amendment.

Whew. Now that that's done...

I'm not usually one to tell someone how to conduct their lives, preferring to see them get their just desserts, but I'm starting to sense a pattern when it comes to your interactions with law enforcement personnel, and that can only lead to heartache and disappointment for you. My advice is to quell that rebellious voice in your head and listen to what the cop has to say, then respond with a calm, cool demeanor. If the cop is wrong, comply with his orders (as state law requires you to do) and address it later. There are procedures in place to take care of errant officers. Educate yourself in their use and employ them properly in your quest for justice and redemption. The system is slow and doesn't make sense sometimes, but it does work. You just have to give it a chance.

Edit: As usual, I took so long to compose this that others have responded with additional information, but none of that changes anything I've said here so I'll leave it be.

I'm not a lawyer, but you keep quoting the 4th Amendment and illegal search and seizure without probable cause. I'm not defending the cops, but an officer could show reasonable suspicion enough to ask you to identify yourself if he felt that perhaps you were loitering under the overpass. Did you calmly and rationally explain your situation, or did you just ramble off an answer while you were preoccupied on the phone? There is nothing at all unreasonable about an officer asking for identification at that point. Most disagreements begin when both parties are upset about outside circumstances... you've already admitted to being upset about the tires and he, according to you, had stated that he was also having a bad day. Perhaps a calm and intelligent approach would have been better advised to you both.

Further, what part of your 5th Amendment right do you feel was violated? The first clause pertains to being detained in capital crimes. Plus, none of your property was seized for government use, nor were you deprived of your property. Were you concerned about implicating yourself in other crimes? If so, then prefacing that to the officer before you were questioned, asking for your attorney, and asserting your rights at that point would have been the course of action. Of course, the officer would have had probable cause to detain you at that point.

This is my take on this. I'm not a lawyer but it seems that cooler heads and reasonable explanations of what was happening would have been the best play.

nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against

By providing them with a license that they can run a background check to see if I have warrants. At that point they were fishing because they were pissed.

And the cop came up to me with the attitude not the other way around. Imagine you have a flat tire and no spare and you are given an unreasonable amount of time to get your vehicle out of the way with the threat of having it towed and impounded.

He bowed up to prove that he had a badge that says he can do whatever the fuck he wants to do; and thats exactly what he did.

Well, its been said several times before here, but your refusal to show ID is what killed it for you. In some situations you have the right not to identify yourself, but you basically forgo that right when you operate a motor vehicle on public streets. In the future, I'd advise you to shut your mouth and call a lawyer ASAP if you think you're being harassed. It's pretty hard to get into too much trouble if you aren't saying anything. If they ask you if you are refusing to cooperate, just tell them you'll be happy to cooperate, but you are awaiting the advice of your attorney on how to proceed.

You can look at this two ways:
1) cops are jerks and you will hold a permanent grudge, chafing every time you have to deal with one (and probably have more confrontations, or
2) You need to work on your people skills and learn how to finesse a bad situation into a tolerable one. Life lesson that will serve you well.

Sorry for your loss. Police: 1 You: 0

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Originally Posted by MiataMike

nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against

By providing them with a license that they can run a background check to see if I have warrants. At that point they were fishing because they were pissed.

And the cop came up to me with the attitude not the other way around. Imagine you have a flat tire and no spare and you are given an unreasonable amount of time to get your vehicle out of the way with the threat of having it towed and impounded.

He bowed up to prove that he had a badge that says he can do whatever the fuck he wants to do; and thats exactly what he did.

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Showing your ID does not constitute being a witness against yourself.

Sorry about what happened to you, I agree the cop was a jerk. And honestly, they went to far just to prove to you that they could do what they wanted. Your actions did not warrant an arrest.

I was with you all the way to the point where you didn't show your ID. That was just plain foolish. I'm of the opinion (as several legal cases have also determined) that the state requirements to show your ID when asked by the police do NOT conflict with the constitution. I'm pretty sure Hiibel will be loosing that case.

Heard this said about marriage, but I guess it applies here too:
Would you rather be right or happy?

Sorry to hear Mike. Lots of occurences leading up to this demise. However, as much as I hate to say it, if your were operating a motor vehicle, you need to produce some sort of ID when asked. If you were just walking down the street, that's a different scenario. Now, the cop telling you that you had a "short" time to get the vehicle out of there or it would be towed... if you would have used your number on the back of your Driver's license 1-800-525-5555 for Texas Roadside Assistance; his and your day would have been much more easy going. I'm all for people standing up for abuse of power, but communication between both parties is a must. Sure, you got harassed... but it wasn't unwarranted.

I appreciate your responses however you are wrong in the sense that I was opperating a motor vehicle. He never saw me on the bike. I was already off of the bike; and NOT opperating it. I was not pulled over. I was on the side of the road with a flat tire.

But you HAD been operating it. And you HAD to pullover to get to the side of the road. And I'm sure the helmet was somewhere on or near your persons to indicate that you had involvement with said motor vehicle. And I believe you contested by saying "You aren't towing MY bike". Just sayin...

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Originally Posted by Electro

But you HAD been operating it. And you HAD to pullover to get to the side of the road. And I'm sure the helmet was somewhere on or near your persons to indicate that you had involvement with said motor vehicle. And I believe you contested by saying "You aren't towing MY bike". Just sayin...

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It doesn't matter if i had involvement with it or not. I was NOT opperating it when they arrived. For all they know i could have been the passenger that was waiting for the opperator to get back.

They only know the information that was given to them. (Shrugs shoulders.... I think I see a pattern here.) Let us know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by MiataMike

It doesn't matter if i had involvement with it or not. I was NOT opperating it when they arrived. For all they know i could have been the passenger that was waiting for the opperator to get back.

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Two things:

1. This is an example of the combative attitude you probably displayed to the cop. Just a guess as I wasn't there, but still the same assumption.

2. One can safely assume that a person standing by a bike was the operator and hence can be asked for ID. If that were the case, every DWI case would be off the hook if only the driver after having crashed into a tree got out of the vehicle and tossed the keys in the car then claimed they were not the driver. A simple series of questions will quickly prove otherwise. Its a safe assumption that you were the driver. You're trying to take leaps of logic that won't pass muster in court. Any decent judge will just eyeball you with that answer.

It was an abuse of power, but why not just show them your ID? Maybe you matched the description of someone they were looking for? Hard to believe 6-7 squad cars would show up just to tow a bike. ::2Cents::

Good luck, hope it all works out.

I probably would've shown my ID, but the a-hole cops might've still found a reason to harass and abuse. It sounds like they were looking for someone to screw with and they had it out for you. I'm shocked at the number of folks here blindly taking up for the cops. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to cut spending on cops - it might get some of the bad apples off the street.

"Pedestrian in the roadway?" Really? That's all they got? Hope it all works out...

I don't think anyone has blindly "taking up" for the cops. I think we're all suggesting that perhaps a more reasonable approach by BOTH parties would have been in order.

Not combative on the motorist and not "I'm the law" on the officer.

I'd suggest fully understanding the law and knowing one's rights before going down the path of refusing to cooperate (mind you, I'm trying to do the same myself so I'm not preaching from some on high pulpit.)

I am glad you are okay and didn't have a wreck on your bike because of the flat tire. I've been in that position and tried fix a flat - doesn't work. The cop should have offered you assistance, not given you a bunch of BS. DPD are just all pissed off because of the budget situation. Maybe his job was at stake - last I heard they were cutting 500 jobs including emergency personnel. You were in a dangerous situation and he should have been HELPFUL not spiteful. Long time ago my brand new car broke down and the dealership gave me a POS car while they fixed mine. NOTHING worked in the car, including the AC. Was driving through Richardson and a cop pulled me over for speeding (couldn't tell if I was or not). My daughter was little and crying because it was so freakin' hot - and it was humid as well - the jerk cop TOLD me he was only writing me a ticket because it had started to rain and I MADE him get out of his car. There are a LOT of cops that are jerks - and a LOT of them will hide behind their shield because they "CAN". I know a LOT of cops and have seen even the best show an ugly side on occasion. 7 cars coming out because a motorcyclist had a flat tire...that's a GREAT way to spend tax payers dollars -especially for a city that cannot balance their budget. Again, glad you are okay and didn't get hit/wreck on 75.

I suspect that the reason 7 cops showed was because of a total lack of respect and belligerent attitude. When one is so willing to be so belligerent and is refusing to show ID, I'm guessing that the cop thought he was dealing with a criminal that had something to hide, thus called for backup.

Also, while the charge of "Pedestrian in Roadway" is pathetic, I'm sure they just decided on that charge to have a reason to charge you with something. I'm sure the cops could care less if you're found guilty or not, since they've already made their point. It is unfortunate that in order to make their point they are wasting a lot of taxpayer money.

The problem is that because of your unwillingness to show ID and your belligerent attitude, along with confirming your attitude with the Sgt., you've lost any possible credibility in the public eye, therefore you've lost your ability to take this public and gain any sympathy, which is evident in watching the posts within this thread.