Turbo vs supercharger

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02-11-2011, 01:40 PM
Titus

I love my intercooled M45 Supercharger with full ECU. It puts about 185 to the wheels.

Now where is Trey to tell us how we all must switch to turbos? ;-)
02-11-2011, 01:45 PM
Radio-Active

Why not just go buy a MSM drivetrain and be done with it. :D
02-11-2011, 01:55 PM
miataspeedracer

Here we go again...
02-11-2011, 02:03 PM
trickyrix

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC Eunos

It's hard to sometimes understand what jeff man is trying say when you don't use the translator tool this forum offers to help decipher jeffs cryptic code...

I found a better one. ::Banana::
02-11-2011, 02:41 PM
BFPW

Eventually when I get some money I'll want to go the forced induction route. When I was first looking into things I had decided on a supercharger. But after awhile I switched to FM's entry level Voodoo setup. I don't want something that provides a ton of power. And I consider reliability far more important than actual horsepower too. Both supers and turbos have their ups and downs, it can be a tough choice.
02-11-2011, 03:03 PM
jeff_man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radio-Active

Why not just go buy a MSM drivetrain and be done with it. :D

anything in front of the trans on a msm suck for the track. they have been very little progression cracking the ecu other then full standalone (no obd2) which in texas you can't have unless your in a no emission county, they only give you 4 psi peek and retards 1/2 the time your in boost. magma has put a lot of money in his msm and it's a very nice msm but it's not a track car and never will be.

not saying m45 are not bad for the street but for ~$500 more a 62 is better for a track car.
02-11-2011, 03:13 PM
Jon-92 miata

Hahaha
02-11-2011, 04:15 PM
miataspeedracer

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_man

not saying m45 are not bad for the street but for ~$500 more a 62 is better for a track car.

It takes a lot more than $500...
02-11-2011, 04:31 PM
jeff_man

Quote:

Originally Posted by miataspeedracer

It takes a lot more than $500...

1999 - 2000 Jackson Racing M45 Supercharger Kit Price: $2,350.00

1999 - 2000 MP62 Supercharger System From MOSS 2,995.00

~$650 difference if you want to get technical. then get it without power cards for some $$$ off.
02-12-2011, 08:46 AM
SirHustlerEsq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus

I love my intercooled M45 Supercharger with full ECU. It puts about 185 to the wheels.

Now where is Trey to tell us how we all must switch to turbos? ;-)

People who make threads like this typically lack the knowledge to reap the rewards of turbonianomicon with a track car. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have the same power-plant in my car...I like the torque.

With these cars it doesn't really matter how you get to 225-250whp, it just matters that you get there for the track. If my car were a street car, I'd still have 300whp on the boost controller. If you're not building a motor, considering 230wtq the absolute max for your rods, so make your decision from there.
02-12-2011, 07:26 PM
SirHustlerEsq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nails

I've seen both kick my butt on the track but I would have to say the supers seem slightly more economical and if they fail you can still drive the car home by undoing the belt.

There isn't much to go wrong in a turbo, how many millions of miles do 18-wheelers put on them in their lifetime? When you use an oil feed restricter turbo's rarely fail, I have about 25-track hours and 15,000 miles on mine and it's never left me stranded.
02-12-2011, 07:37 PM
Nails

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr brg

There isn't much to go wrong in a turbo, how many millions of miles do 18-wheelers put on them in their lifetime? When you use an oil feed restricter turbo's rarely fail, I have about 25-track hours and 15,000 miles on mine and it's never left me stranded.

And the economical part? Dude your car rocks and is sick fast. It's my favorite sound at Hallett followed by the Beast. But you spent tens, if not hundreds, of dollars to get it that way.
02-12-2011, 09:40 PM
SirHustlerEsq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nails

And the economical part? Dude your car rocks and is sick fast. It's my favorite sound at Hallett followed by the Beast. But you spent tens, if not hundreds, of dollars to get it that way.

Knowing what I know, I could build the turbo parts for about $3800 without the intercooler(manifold, DP, WG, BOV, turbo w/ v-band turbine. The reason it cost me so much is because the first kit I had didn't cut the mustard and had to build it twice.
02-12-2011, 10:33 PM
BFPW

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr brg

Knowing what I know, I could build the turbo parts for about $3800 without the intercooler(manifold, DP, WG, BOV, turbo w/ v-band turbine. The reason it cost me so much is because the first kit I had didn't cut the mustard and had to build it twice.

What are your thoughts on FM's entry Voodoo kit?
02-12-2011, 11:19 PM
jeff_man

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFPW

What are your thoughts on FM's entry Voodoo kit?

diy > fm kits, also get a real ecu and not a piggy back
02-12-2011, 11:50 PM
BFPW

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_man

diy > fm kits, also get a real ecu and not a piggy back

Out of curiosity, besides the extra cost, why are the FM kits inferior?

I'm not really looking for 250-300whp, so I'm not so sure that I would need a real ECU. I would be happy with 150-160hp at the wheels.
02-13-2011, 12:49 AM
johnwag

If you're thinking track car, learning to drive is #1. Suspension and handling is #2. Power is #3.

If you want to know everything there is to know about miata's and turbocharging, then go to miataturbo.net and read.

If you only want to make 150-160whp in your miata, it can be done with factory 10:1 pistons, factory mazdaspeed intake cam, bolt on intake, header, catback and a real ecu. It's tried, proven and damn reliable.

If you've got you're mind set on SC, then don't even consider the M45 as it's no longer being made for any year miata. You're options are Rotrex/Kraftwerks, SOT/TDR MP62 and Moss Motors MP62. Each kit varies in it's own way and has it's pros and cons
02-13-2011, 08:19 AM
SirHustlerEsq

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFPW

Out of curiosity, besides the extra cost, why are the FM kits inferior?

I'm not really looking for 250-300whp, so I'm not so sure that I would need a real ECU. I would be happy with 150-160hp at the wheels.

Inferior is too strong of a word. I like V-band hot-parts, FM doesn't think it's necessary. with the Trackspeed Engineering Inco-stud hardware you can get around problems with the turbo-manifold seal problem. After that it's little things that I get on my "golden unicorn' turbo parts: 1000rpm-earlier target boost/max torque, external wastegate, and I don't like silicone intercooler pipes but that's not a very big deal. Their kits are really good, and they have a new kit on the way with plumbing for a turbine-mounted EWG.

Do you know about Abe/ARTech in Wylie? He makes penomenal schedule-40 manifolds and anything else you want for a turbo car and he's one of the few people I'd spend money with on a turbo set-up for the track.

Ask anyone who runs stand alone engine management and they'll agree that you NEED it. It will make the car drive better than it came from the factory, and I'm not joking.

There's one theme that still runs true about the turbo SC debate and very simply put, you can drop your car off at TDR and get it back track ready and track reliable.
02-13-2011, 01:46 PM
SixAce

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFPW

..I'm not really looking for 250-300whp, so I'm not so sure that I would need a real ECU. I would be happy with 150-160hp at the wheels.

Umm, that's what I thought. I was wrong on both cases. Just got back from the dyno. Powercards are a waste of money (may be ok for street only). I'll sell you mine..

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr brg

..Ask anyone who runs stand alone engine management and they'll agree that you NEED it. It will make the car drive better than it came from the factory, and I'm not joking.

There's one theme that still runs true about the turbo SC debate and very simply put, you can drop your car off at TDR and get it back track ready and track reliable.

Agree with the first part, debatable on the second. Be ready to spend a boatload there.

Wags is correct. Seat-time, suspension, power (and brakes) in that order..

If I were to do it over, I'd go rotrex (or just buy a bimmer).
02-13-2011, 02:48 PM
BFPW

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwag

If you're thinking track car, learning to drive is #1. Suspension and handling is #2. Power is #3.

If you want to know everything there is to know about miata's and turbocharging, then go to miataturbo.net and read.

If you only want to make 150-160whp in your miata, it can be done with factory 10:1 pistons, factory mazdaspeed intake cam, bolt on intake, header, catback and a real ecu. It's tried, proven and damn reliable.

If you've got you're mind set on SC, then don't even consider the M45 as it's no longer being made for any year miata. You're options are Rotrex/Kraftwerks, SOT/TDR MP62 and Moss Motors MP62. Each kit varies in it's own way and has it's pros and cons

My car does need a new suspension, but I've already got all of that figured out. I'm just trying to sort out the power options now. And yes, I'll upgrade the suspension before I get the power.

I didn't know 150-160 naturally aspirated power could be achieved on the Miata at a reasonable price. Reading Miata.net, everyone seems to say that it's incredibly expensive. But I don't really know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr brg

Inferior is too strong of a word. I like V-band hot-parts, FM doesn't think it's necessary. with the Trackspeed Engineering Inco-stud hardware you can get around problems with the turbo-manifold seal problem. After that it's little things that I get on my "golden unicorn' turbo parts: 1000rpm-earlier target boost/max torque, external wastegate, and I don't like silicone intercooler pipes but that's not a very big deal. Their kits are really good, and they have a new kit on the way with plumbing for a turbine-mounted EWG.

Do you know about Abe/ARTech in Wylie? He makes penomenal schedule-40 manifolds and anything else you want for a turbo car and he's one of the few people I'd spend money with on a turbo set-up for the track.

Ask anyone who runs stand alone engine management and they'll agree that you NEED it. It will make the car drive better than it came from the factory, and I'm not joking.

There's one theme that still runs true about the turbo SC debate and very simply put, you can drop your car off at TDR and get it back track ready and track reliable.

You have a really good point about TDR being close by, and that does give the SC the upperhand in the D/FW area in a sense. Reliability, not power, is my #1 concern. Having a nice shop nearby for maintenance is a plus.

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