Printable View
Hey guys, to the the site, get place! I just bought an 02 miata and want to have a turbo installed where is a good shop to have this done? I am going to use it as a daily driver but also play. Any input would be appreciated... was considering flyingmiata but would like to keep it local if possible.
Keeping it local with a Miata Specialist would require you to consider a supercharger.
Track Dog Racing
only s.c. being done around town? like the idea of a turbo.... think its more reliable have one on my harley....love it
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk0818
And uh, welcome to the forum!
Talk to a few of the S/C owners on the forum. They all seem very happy.
Titus and Miataspeedracer may chime in.
thanks for the info, since I want to stay with the turbo- who would you use? looking for feed back good or bad...
thanks!
If you want to try a supercharged car, PM me. If you are set on turbo, you can't go wrong with FM. If you want someone a little closer, you could head south for BEGI.
im sure they are, just a preference. s.c. are fun too. have had good luck with the turbos, lots of miles with no problems (knock on wood) since this will be a daily driver thats important for me.
thanks! have you comapred the two? i have heard alot about flyinmiata...but not known anyone who had their equipt. nice guys though
A short Miata turbo history lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk0818
I may have a few little things off. If so, perhaps Sharpie can refine it for me.
- BEGI built a turbo miata kit, but didn't like sales.
- FM was good at sales, and liked BEGI's kits, so a marriage was made.
- FM spent many years selling FM branded BEGI turbos with electronics added by FM.
- FM wanted BEGI to make improvements, BEGI was not too interested.
- FM and BEGI split up.
- FM designed a new, better system on their own and began selling it.
- BEGI got into sales and went head to head with FM.
- BEGI made many improvements to the old kit that they sold via FM so they could compete with FM's new kit, but their electronics are still inferior.
Begi and FM are similar. I'm an FM guy, I trust their support and willingness help you build your system to fit your needs. My dad has 3 FM cars, one has over 130k miles on the turbo and 100k on the car. He bought Bill's original turbo that he started with in 89'.
The main thing you'll need to consider is engine management. There are several out there. The piggyback link is nice, because you can still get inspected every year and not have to worry about OBDII stuff. The hydra stand alone is FM's newish ECU. Figure out your needs and go from there.
FM and Begi have basic starter kits available without intercoolers, engine mngt. etc. with low boost.
As for local, I don't know where to send you. For the SC I'd go to trackdog.
Just take it to BEGi.
thanks! was aware of the the relationship there. if you go with the hydra are there problems with inspections?
I don't believe the Hydra will talk to OBDII, you will have to put it on the treadmill/dyno and do a tailpipe sniffer for inspections. The Hydra can get you more control than a piggyback. Bill and Jeremy at FM really like it. I know there are several other engine management systems out there. My dad has the piggyback link on his 03' but wants to upgrade to the Hydra. There is a 99' piggyback on m.n for $300, but I'm not sure that it would work on an 02' due to VVT.
Hey, if you want Turbo, then by all means go Turbo, don't listen to all the ScrewBalls around here (pun intented);). I've got a '97 FM2 Turbo, and it's my 2nd Turbo'd Miata from FM, both were BEGI designs. I've got the Link ECU, but you will definately need something like the Hydra, that can take advantage of the VVT.
If you aren't interested in putting the kit together yourself, then you may want to talk with ATS Racing in Denton. They have a lot of Turbo experiance, mostly with Honda's but they have Miata experiance as well. They may be willing to install an FM kit for you.
Personally, I'm not fond of FM's current kit, as is uses a lot of Rubber tubing, instead of pipes. I also think that Track Dog has the best innercooler on the market, it looks really good! But I'm not sure it's compatable with the new FM kit.
All that said, when my '08's warranty expires in 58,000 miles, I'll probably change gears and go with a Screw myself, as I'm sure it will be better for Auto-crossing, of which I hope to get back into next year. The lag, followed by a super rush of power has been a challenge to work with around corners.
If you want a ride in a turbo Miata, just give me a holler, I'm in Mansfield.
thanks! yes I woulf like to take a ride... Im right of 360 just north of 183 so not far at all.
The Hydra Will not pass State Inspection unless you live outside of the City where emissions tests aren't required :-D
I have a FMII Turbo setup with the Hydra EMS installed and Tuned by Steve Kahn at Gotham Racing in NW Ft. Worth. Steve is the only certified Hydra installer in the State of Texas and claims to have over 400 Hydra installs/tunes. Cost of the install got a little pricey though it took a couple extra hours to pull out all of the old Link equipment. Total cost was about $1500 for install and tune + the cost of the Hydra w/ WB02.
http://www.gothamracing.com/Script/index.php?option=com_contact&catid=4&Itemid=3
I need to get mine retuned after replacing my downpipe (the old one broke in half) But I can give you a ride if your around.
You are pretty close..........I can tell you after working for Corky for six years one the biggest problems with him was wanting to change the turbo kits up before we had hardly sold enough to pay the development costs. FM thought they could do it better for cheaper so they split the sheets with BEGi. Corky is an mechanical engineer (A&M), sales and marketing were a necessary evil to him. He can put you to sleep explaining the hows and whys of X and Y.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
That's good to know. I wasn't sure what they could/would do. Sounds like a pain. There's got to be a better solution to emissions legal ECU's for OBDII cars....???Quote:
Originally Posted by MiataMike
Right now I don't know of any Full Standalone ECU that is OBDII compliant :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpie
My FM with the ODB-I Link in my '97 ODB-II car passes every year, but I have to put it on the Dyno, as the Link doesn't talk to their computer.
So no worries.
TD
Before you decide to go FI, uderstand your '02 car will not be of the same power level as eariler cars thanks to the VVT (variable valve timing) setup. We have an '02 in our stables right now that will have our MP62 SC and intercooler setup along with a lot of other goodies, come see. This car will be our development car to work with this damn power killing VVT. On average the '01-05 cars are down about 16-18 HP to an equivelent '99-00 car at 8 PSI boost. Hopefully with a few tricks we can bring the power back.
You mentioned maintenance higher on a SC car? Supercharged cars about 99% maintenance free, maybe $18 belt once year. Not even close to the constant issues you will see with turbos and the difficult installation. Heat will ALWAYS be an issue with an aftermarket turbo kit and not just Miatas. OBDII emissions with our setups is not an issue at any power level we set up.
By the way, if anyone is interested, I took a M45 off this '02 car with about 100 miles on it for sale. List is $2195 and selling it for the customer for $1800, a steal of a deal. Let me know if interested before I post it to the classified section.
You are more than welcome to give us a visit at the Dog House in Plano to take a ride in our couple of SC cars and see this car that is similar to yours.
Gary
Cell 214-280-6172
I was under the impression the VVT cars were actually a couple h.p. stronger...the s.c. your speaking of... roots style or centrifugal? What kind of rwhp are you talking about with a stock 02? lastly what is the cost including installation?
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdog
Call him. He doesn't get on the forum, but once every blue moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by rrk0818
The lower tech 99-00 cars are easier to get good power out of. The VVT on the '01+ doesn't play nice with superchargers, and the VVT cars also have higher compression. This causes most to have problems getting as much out of them before knocking sets in. A full ECU capable of VVT and Timing control such as the Hydra should improve the situation, but I have not seen anyone try this yet.
Hey Bob,
Like Wag says i don't get on the Forum every day. Please come visit us when you have time. We have a '02 right now we are putting the MP62 in with our TDR intercooler and a lot of extra goodies. One of the developments we are working on is the VVT issue.
You mentioned the VVT is suppose to be good for a couple of more horsepower, yes it was in stock form. Under boosted conditions the intake cam has two phases, idle, cruise and above 6000 RPM is one phase and the other phase is under load conditions.
With the same boost on a '99-00 car verses the '01-05 car the power level is about the same until 6000 RPM when the cam changes phase. This is our project and we have a few tricks we are going to test on this customers car.
If you have time, call me and we can show you what we are doing. If you want to email me use my regular email, not the Forum please, [email protected].
Talk soon,
Gary
Is that $1800 blower everything included? I wouldn't mind having my 1.6 actually be able to get off the line faster than a V6 Accord :)Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdog
The bracket is different with 1.6 cars, so I don't think it would be an easy fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Gary can source the bracket. I'm sure he would do it if a 1.6 miata owner wanted to buy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdog
ok will do- I will be that way in the next couple of days- doing some work on my turbo harley....keep it about 168 rwhp @ 8psi....lots of fun ! adding vance and hines electric shifter and a few other tweaks....
When I first got my Miata my plan was to go turbo, as well. I come from a long line of modified turbo cars. It's what I knew - what I was comfortable with and at the time I thought it had more flexibility.
When I started doing the research I decided to give Gary's suggestion a try and I went with an MP62 supercharger. I couldn't be happier. It's fairly conservatively tuned right now at 10.5 psi and it made 216whp on a 98-degree August day. (Mine is a '99) The powerband is absolutely linear and predictable - a trait that I've come to appreciate.
If anyone is curious to see how this setup drives - shoot me an email ([email protected]). I check the board about as frequently as Gary does :)
Install is plugging the thing in, and running 1 vac hose and possibly 2 wires for IAT. At the standard rate of $150 per hour that's a ton of dyno time. I'm in the wrong business.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiataMike
supercharger section:
If you aren't mechanically inclined, or don't want to mess with it, go to gary / tdr. There's a handful of people in town with his packages on their cars, and its a real quality statement when 10+ cars with his kits make the 4 hour drive to Tulsa, play on the track for 2 hours of track time, then drive home.
I've driven Gary's silver blown car, and its like driving a v8. Seamless power delivery, ran great, no complaints. If I had a 99 car, I'd have the same set-up...or purchased it if I knew the car were for sale.
turbo section:
I'm building a turbo car because I want to play with the big boys on the track (which you can also do with a 1.8 supercharged car), and also own a subaru. I have a 1.6 car, which limits my blower options significantly, so I went the turbo route.
You've owned turbo cars before, so I won't give you the "don't expect the car to make power off idle," garbage.
The FM kits are good. If you have $1k more to spend, then you can get the same or marginally better build quality with the Bell kit. Both are solid choices, include every nut and bolt, but a few design issues are being address by FM according to forums (grain of salt), none I've seen first hand. I don't know of any with the Bell kit, and have not installed mine yet. If you want to look at the Bell kit, give me a call...you'll be impressed. Bell and FM have two different schools of thought: FM will sell you a replacement hose for $20, Bell will tell you to buy the hose at Napa for $10, but it wouldn't have broken in the first place.
I spent the extra money on the bell kit because I wanted the metal piping, the remarkably superior intercooler, a bunch of heat shielding, superior downpipe, stainless hoses, and whatever...I'm done.
engine management section:
Megasquirt rules. They may have something in the works for vvt. You can run ms as a piggyback to control fuel and spark, but don't expect anyone around here to hook it up for you. Tuning is not rocket surgery.
That is not correct there was a lot more involved with installing that ECU than just plugging it in and setting up 2 wires and a vacume hose. and the $1500 might as well be a bit misleading because the ECU wasn't the only thing that was being installed.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
I thought Hydra was supposed to be plug and play?Quote:
Originally Posted by MiataMike
Yeah... and the link is plug and play too... still took me over 8 hours to get in and running. You have to consider the fact that most ECU installs are accompanied by things like injectors, knock sensor, air temperature sensor, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
EDIT- Here is a list of the things I had to do to install my LINK. You have to consider the removal of the former fuel and timing controls when you are upgrading compared to a fresh install. Mike would have likely gone through several of these un-install items with his Hydra install as well.
- Remove the AFPR that came with the Jackson Racing Kit.
- Remove the AFM.
- Remove the Jackson Racing Air intake.
- Install the new intake kit from TDR.
- Remove the Jackson Racing electronics that override the AFM signal to the stock ECU.
- Remove the Stock ECU.
- Install the LINK ECU into the stock ECU case and re-installed the car.
- Move 4 wires in the ECU plug from one spot to another.
- Run a new ground from the ECU to the engine.
- Run a WB02 wire from the ECU to the glovebox for future use.
- Run new wires from ECU to fuel rail that will allow convert to Sequential Fuel Injection.
- Run a wire from the ECU to the engine bay that is supposed to allow me to run fans in parallel.
- Install an Air Temperature Sensor in the dummy throttle body.
- Install RC440 injectors.
- Modify Injector harness wires for Sequential Fuel Injection.
- Install the new MAP sensor in place of the AFM.
- Install the knock sensor.
- Hook up laptop to load base map
- Tune
I installed ms pnp today. All I had to do was run a vac hose through the firewall. I kept the air meter today because I can't find a tap for it, but when I do I have to run the GM IAT sensor to the old AFM plug, switch the firmware, then crank and tune. I'm not running sequential though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
Its pretty much like Todd said. I had to have all the old Link equipment removed. Basically full reverse of what he listed as the install. Plus with the Hydra I had to have the intake manifold taken off drilled out and the IAT sensor welded in. And a few other quirky things went in with the install like the way the ignition was setup, I won't even go into that (3 triggers to start the car). It is plug and play; but to a degree. I just didn't have the time or the tools needed to do it myself. (not to mention Steve @ Gotham claims to have over 400 Hydra Installs done and it still took him over 3 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
OK, come see me if you want Plug-And-Play. I can tune a car with the new Powercard Pro setup in a bout 3 runs down the street. Simple is Good!
Gary