Clutch: Now it's the Miata's turn I guess

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08-31-2010, 08:02 AM
Jiggerachi

Clutch: Now it's the Miata's turn I guess

**Found problem, with pics**

Arrrggggg!!! Just spent a total of $800 on the Element clutch/ master/ slave cyl a few weeks ago, now it's the Miata's turn I guess.

Symptoms: For the last couple years i've had an annoying scratchy downshift to third, just often enough to be annoying, but not really a problem. Slave cylinder helped, but it came back recently pretty badly with the hot weather. Transmission has been noticably more 'clunky' lately. This weekend I was planning on flushing and replacing the gear oil to see if this was the problem.

The last month or so i've had noisy u-joints, getting progressively worse. Been looking and planning on replacing the driveshaft, but having a new baby to take care of, a wife that didn't get paid for most of the summer, and blowing what I had in the bank on the Element clutch, kept me from doing much with the car at all.

Yesterday sitting in the drivethrough next to a wall I noticed this gravel-ey noise somehow related to the clutch, it was faint and probably just amplified by the brick wall. It came and went with the clutch pedal, clutch just didn't feel right though, couldn't put my finger on it but something was a little off. I think parking back at work I had trouble getting into reverse, it was odd. On the way to class last night though the car felt fine, not a problem, not a noise.

Here's the kicker: This morning I crank the car and it won't go into reverse. I've had this happen before so I did the little let out the clutch pedal trick, and nothing. Tried first gear, nothing, won't go in to any gear whatsoever. Exactly like the element. I get out check the clutch master cylinder and it's full, got my wife to pump the clutch and verified it was moving the slave like it's supposed to, good movement. Man at this point I know it must be a failed pressure plate, similar to what happened with the element.

Turned off the car to think for a minute, then decide to try again...crank the car, lever sinks straight into reverse without a hitch. First, second, all of them work absolutely fine. Scratched my head and drove to work like normal. Not a noise, not a scratch, not a problem to speak of...other than noisy u-joints.

Any ideas? At this point i'm going to start buying a clutch kit, planning for the inevetible. But if the car makes it through this weekend i'll flush the gear oil as planned. Could this be anything relating to a transmission, or does this sound like a clutch.

165,000 on the clock and as far as I know it's the stock clutch, so I know it's clutch time anyway.

Edit: Oh by the way, I tried searching, but most people's clutch just goes out and that's that, couldn't find anything like this...
08-31-2010, 08:44 AM
OZMDD

Throwout bearing might be sticking on the shaft. Also, have you changed the tranny fluid, including the "tower?"
08-31-2010, 08:53 AM
Jiggerachi

Haven't had a chance to check the tranny fluid yet. Was planning on doing that this weekend...it's got mobile one tranny fluid, but it's definitely due for a change.

When I heard that noise my first thought was throwout bearing...but I never spoke the word for fear of jinxing it. I'm guessing this would be a sign of the end of the throwout bearing??

The 'value' clutch kit comes with the release bearing, and pilot bearing... i'm guessing one of these is the throwout bearing right, or would I have to buy that one separate??
08-31-2010, 08:57 AM
sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

The 'value' clutch kit comes with the release bearing, and pilot bearing... i'm guessing one of these is the throwout bearing right, or would I have to buy that one separate??

Value kit comes with everything you need. You might want to plan on replacing the rear main seal while the tranny is off.
08-31-2010, 09:16 AM
Jiggerachi

Rear main seal is on the shopping list.

Any other seals to replace while down there?? Transmission seals?
08-31-2010, 09:50 AM
brandonmpace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

Yesterday sitting in the drivethrough next to a wall I noticed this gravel-ey noise somehow related to the clutch, it was faint and probably just amplified by the brick wall. It came and went with the clutch pedal, clutch just didn't feel right though, couldn't put my finger on it but something was a little off.

My car makes a noise like that that goes away with the clutch. Once in a while I'll get a little bite shifting into third and even more rarely have to double pump the clutch to put it in gear smoothly. Is this something I should look at fixing immediately? Don't mean to thread-jack, but I don't want to have my car not be able to move at all.. ::Rant::
Stock clutch 104k miles.
08-31-2010, 09:50 AM
Jiggerachi

Ok so thinking about this another way. If the throwout bearing possibly is sticking to the shaft or something like that, what would cause this?? The tranny oil needs to be changed, I probably changed it more than 30k miles ago. What symptoms could old tranny fluid cause??

If need be i'll do a clutch job, but this is very bad timing for a big job like this so i'm trying to think of the cheaper / easier alternatives here.
08-31-2010, 10:15 AM
Rob®

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

If the throwout bearing possibly is sticking to the shaft or something like that, what would cause this??

165k on the original (or even aftermarket) bearing...that's a lot of miles for what is concerned a wear item.
08-31-2010, 11:00 AM
OZMDD

Another thing to check before tearing it apart is the clutch master/slave cylinder. They are generally bleed-able, and what you guys describe (intermittent issues) could be related to air bubbles, or leaks.
08-31-2010, 11:06 AM
Jiggerachi

^ I haven't had a chance to look for leaks, but when it wouldn't go into gear, the pedal was still firm and had the same clutch feel. The fluid level was good, and I verified the slave was pushing the fork just fine. When the clutch works, it disengages pretty high up in the pedal like it should with good hydraulic pressure.

The slave is relatively new, the master is still OEM as far as I know.

I'll check it more when I get off work, but I am pretty sure the hydraulics are good.
08-31-2010, 11:31 AM
Rob®

Quote:

Originally Posted by OZMDD

Another thing to check before tearing it apart is the clutch master/slave cylinder. They are generally bleed-able, and what you guys describe (intermittent issues) could be related to air bubbles, or leaks.

Brandon's issue is more than likely his leaking slave cylinder. That's not the sounds or 3rd gear grind (well it could be that as well) he has, but it more than likely is his need to pump the pedal occasionally. Even if it's not, he definitely needs to replace it...I think he said he even has the parts already.
08-31-2010, 11:32 AM
sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

I'll check it more when I get off work, but I am pretty sure the hydraulics are good.

Squeeze the rubber boot on the slave cyl and see if there's any fluid in there. Easy leak check.
08-31-2010, 11:42 AM
Jiggerachi

^ Yea i'll definitely check that, but i've felt both a leaky slave, and a bad pressure plate recently, the more I think about the more it felt exactly like the latter. I've already placed a rush order for a clutch kit from Rosenthal. I'm gonna be PISSED if it's as simple as a slave cyl because now im broke as a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob®

Brandon's issue is more than likely his leaking slave cylinder. That's not the sounds or 3rd gear grind (well it could be that as well) he has, but it more than likely is his need to pump the pedal occasionally. Even if it's not, he definitely needs to replace it...I think he said he even has the parts already.

Wait...which Brandon are you referring to??

Oh just noticed his screenname was BrandonMPace...haha, my name is Brandon too.
08-31-2010, 12:04 PM
Rob®

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

Wait...which Brandon are you referring to??

Oh just noticed his screenname was BrandonMPace...haha, my name is Brandon too.

Sorry, he's the only Brandon I know here.

I've run into the broken spring seat in pressure plates a few times, and it kind of sounds like your issue, but kind of not. EVERY failure I've run into like that is always hit or miss. It will not let you get into gear till you shut the car down, then just beat the shifter up a bit. But it won't work normally the rest of the day or week - it will "randomly" prevent you from putting the car into gear...could be seconds or minutes, but I have NEVER seen one that would just do it once or twice then work fine for a while afterward.
08-31-2010, 12:19 PM
Jiggerachi

^Yep that's what's got me head scratching. Made sense that the throwout bearing might be sticking.

I took a gamble based on the 165k mileage, i'm sure the clutch is toast anyway, but let's hope it fixes the problem.
08-31-2010, 02:54 PM
patf

You may want to check the slave as noted above. it may be moving a little but not with enough force to do its job. its a commonly replaced/rebuilt item. if you replace the clutch, id replace it as well. the flying miata site has some good instructions on replacement and setup when you do your clutch job...

YMMV
08-31-2010, 05:11 PM
nealb

sounds like a pilot bearing to me

had the same issue in another car

the bearing is dying and it doesn't let the tranny input shaft slow down

when it happens again (won't go into a gear), turn off the motor, shift into the gear you want, and start the motor and see if it is "normal"
08-31-2010, 09:34 PM
shortshift

Did you check or replace the pilot bushing? Simply a guess, but I'm wondering if, on occassion, the first motion shaft gets a bit out of line and prevents the throwout bearing from moving enough to work the pressure plate. Based on your descriptions, I can't think of anything else that would keep the clutch from disengaging the motor from the transmission.
08-31-2010, 09:38 PM
OZMDD

pilot bearing/bushing is an excellent thought...hadn't considered that.
09-02-2010, 08:30 AM
Jiggerachi

Ok, just a few impressions from driving the car to work and school for a few days...

Never could get it to reproduce the problem earlier, but I do remember it not going into reverse before that morning when it siezed up, so that makes it twice that has happened.

After the last time the tranny locked up or whatever it did, it's been fine shifting, but i've noticed a constant grinding like a diesel truck sound in neutral. I have a noisy synchro that does this in 2nd and 4th, but NEVER in neutral previously. Pressing the clutch pedal the noise goes away, let it out and it's back. I was not sure about this noise earlier, but now i'm positive it's there and distinct.

So i'm almost sure this is all related somehow and that the pilot or throwout bearing is just on its way out. I'm trying to decide if I want to wait a week or so to work out getting the flywheel machined properly beforehand, since the car seems to be drivable now. If it went out totally I think I could limp it home and carpool with my wife for a few days. The clutch kit should be here tomorrow anyway, so if it blows i'll be prepared for it.

Is there any danger of having one of these bearings sieze up? What do they do besides getting really noisy? I don't want to ruin the transmission by driving it like this.
09-02-2010, 08:58 PM
shortshift

I think it's a low percentage that the pilot bearing/bushing would sieze. The issue is more of alignment because the bearing is too sloppy. If the first motion shaft doesn't line up with the crankshaft, it could put some undue tension on the front transmission bearing. Mostly, I think, you'll experience inconvenience in gear selection and, perhaps, some vibration in the drive-train. You can probably drive it around town for the rest of the year, but I wouldn't start a cross-country trip just yet.
09-03-2010, 11:09 PM
brandonmpace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob®

Brandon's issue is more than likely his leaking slave cylinder. That's not the sounds or 3rd gear grind (well it could be that as well) he has, but it more than likely is his need to pump the pedal occasionally. Even if it's not, he definitely needs to replace it...I think he said he even has the parts already.

Already replaced it, and put in a stainless line. Checked both places for leaks, none found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

...i've noticed a constant grinding like a diesel truck sound in neutral. I have a noisy synchro that does this in 2nd and 4th, but NEVER in neutral previously. Pressing the clutch pedal the noise goes away, let it out and it's back. I was not sure about this noise earlier, but now i'm positive it's there and distinct.

That is exactly the noise I'm talking about. Mine has gotten quieter as of late.. I'm wondering if it's because all the fresh fluid cycled through finally, but it was definitely distinct previously. I hope it's something that won't do major damage and I'll just replace my clutch when it goes out. Maybe I'll do it before then, but it would be helpful to know what is making the noise.
02-20-2011, 07:50 PM
Jiggerachi

After 5,000 miles, I finally got around to the clutch job. Man what a chore that was.

Anyway, I think I found my problem...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...219_114343.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...219_114358.jpg

The throwout bearing was gritty and howled when spun.
The pilot bearing fell all to pieces (or was already in pieces) when I pulled the pressure plate off.
The springs inside the clutch disk were all loose and broken in some place, two were broken in multiple places, one you can see had at one point been wedged in sideways bending the metal. The splined hole had about 3/4in of free radial movement since the springs were busted up. This must have been making my clanking noise that I mistook for the u-joints going out. The driveshaft was fine when I pulled it out.

So in case you're wondering what that diesel truck grinding, rattling noise is, chances are your clutch / bearings look like this.
Oddly enough there was still a little meat left in the clutch disk, but was definitely it's time.