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For anybody who hasn't seen it, Fat Cat has a nice group buy going on their custom coilovers.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=428304
I'm plugging this shamelessly because I want a set, but we're only 4 people into the group buy so far. :punchout:
What's the point? You might not even still own the car by the time he actually builds and ships them. Great coilovers, but I've talked to waaay too many people who waited absurdly long times to get them, and I have yet to meet anyone who got a set quickly.
year + to get what you ordered is what i have read
spend the extra money and get ASTs, $450 more (for 5100) for a very superior shock system.
Mine took 8 weeks, just 2 weeks over what I was originally told. I have never heard of over a year, just a few months.
So Jeff, when was the last time you drove a Miata with custom valved FCM Bilsteins? Since you're making some pretty bold claims. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_man
Oh noes... Miatamoto hasn't heard? All the "cool kids" are sporting ASTs now because every other coil-over is an absolute piece of shit. If you want to be the fastest driver with the biggest nutsack, you NEED ASTs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
http://gamesprays.com/images/icons/k...ya_icon949.jpg
Talk to SteveE about his FCM wait...
8 weeks is months-faster than anyone I've talked to.
Of course, Endura Tech can have your NC suspension shipped next-day, but thats another story. :)
BR - when do you actually race yours? I'd sure like to see you at an event one of these days. :)
Pitiful customer service from that company. Almost 6 month wait on a promised 6 week delivery and then I discover that he was delivering shocks to people that had ordered after he had taken my money. Reading on-line about the owner taking various vacations when production was behind convinced me he could really care less about the quality of his service. Had I known what I was getting into I would have spent the extra dollars and gone the AST/Motom/Penske custom doubles route.
Steve E
949 sells ASTs so they have to be the best hands down... Custom shocks are over rated. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
I've been on track with, I believe, 3 FCM suspended cars and all three of them looked miserable over bumps and clearly lacked grip at Hallett in #10 and #6, probably because of the bumps. One V8 in particular looked like absolute shit with 6" of body roll on every corner, my little 230whp car should not have stood a chance that day. Of course all of this could have been set-up and it looked like the V8 was missing sway bars or something. Maybe it was too much tire for his rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
Pretty much any universal "cartridge" twin tube, steel shock is a piece of shit compared to Xida/AST's, FCM get's 2nd place these days. The shock in question is non-adjustable, heavy (AST's cut 5lb+ per corner), rubber lower mount, no tender springs, and they're most likely using QA1 springs (I'm not an engineer but I believe 99% of real racecars use Hyperco or Swift for a reason). In 5-years or more, when you want a revalve or you break something, AST is in Plano so you don't have to ship anything. These are facts, not opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by black roadster
Non-adjustables at $1400 is also a mistake. I run the rear stiffer at TWS because I never go lower than 4th gear, I run the car softer at Hallett because the track is rough and the curbs are big...and if I'm in a mood where I can't turn the car, I add a click in the rear and the car turns more. At this point pretty much every fast Miata in the country is running Xidas, and there's a reason for it.
I have a datalogger now, we should throw it in a hot-shoe's car and see how it compares to an AST suspended car and see what's faster, where.
Shit happens on the supply side, and I don't fault the guy for that. A big enough supply problem may require a vacation. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve E
What's not custom about free spring selection and highspeed adjustment? If you want different high/low comp/rebound, I bet AST will do whatever valve and shims you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by slowchildmiata
In my extreeeeemely limited dealings with FCM, I found the guy to be really difficult to get hold of - never returning calls, never answering the phone during regular business hours, etc. Once I finally got to talk to him, he seemed like he knew what he was talking about, but I don't think I'd ever buy anything from him based on how hard he was to run down. Not a professional business with legit professional support, IMO.
Could care less if it's 949 or someone else. Seeing as you can get your ASTs custom shimmed and spring rates of your choosing your sarcasm is void.Quote:
Originally Posted by slowchildmiata
There are long list of threads and post from m.net, mt.net, clubroadtard talking about the same problems rick had and more. Personally knowing the guys at AST makes me more impartial to their wares and I've seen there track side support that you wont get from any other manufacturer.
+1 on Trey's in dept post on why we love our ASTs.
Trust me I'm a total AST fan boi. They're great shocks, I've helped set up 2 AST cars and had a set of 4100s on my R32 which made it do things a FWD based 3400 lb hatchback shouldn't be able to do at the track.
My point is that people shouldn't come on to the board and trash talk things they don't know about. Jeff, what you heard from other people on the internet doesn't give you a good idea what FCM coilovers are capable of. Trey, just because you "saw" something on the track doesn't mean anything, lap times are conjecture because of the differences in overall setup and drivers, but you're right, you need to do back to back testing with similar cars and data acquisition to really know.
There probably some things that FCM can do better than AST with the larger diameter pistons they use. It's all about the use and the setup of the rest of the car.
Trey, I think you're concentration on the little things like shock weight and tender springs is pretty trivial. I think 95% of drivers out there aren't going to be able feel the difference and definitely not going to be able to drive at a level that takes advantage of these benefits. Both jrj512 and I didn't run tender springs on our ASTs and they are both great handling cars.
Of course a lot of it comes down to driver preference, these are all high quality options. I like the price point of FCM and have always loved Bilsteins. Unfortunately I have not gotten a chance to drive a FCM car so I can't give a comparison to ASTs.
For some reason I can't quote today. Forgive Jeff, it's a personality disorder, possibly neural gonorrhea. I've learned a lot about cars over the last few years. It started with engine management and tuning, then the powerplant, and now I'm looking for a good book for knuckle-draggers on suspension (Mark Ortiz' blogs are awesome). If I've sounded rude I apologize, I enjoy talking about them and debating them. Hell, look at how much BS I've put out here on engine oil, maybe I'm mentally ill.
I think you can visually see suspension working on the track, many others will agree with me. You can see the car bouncing off curbs, you can see body roll and wheel articulation, and you can visually see the tire on the pavement through bumps. If someone is blocking you and won't let you around them, it gives you more time to watch. $1k is a lot to me, and for this amount of cash the little things mattered to me. It's no secret that I'm a fairly miserable driver, however the metal lower mounts and ability to run the car lower were easily felt in the car and made driving the car a more pleasurable experience.
As to the tender springs, the more I read about them the more I wish I had them. People who've added them noted a smoother ride and ultimately they make more grip on rough tracks, there is a reason every real production tub racecar runs them. Which 95% of drivers are you talking about? The 95% who don't track their cars or 95% of high-end damper customers? I think a greater percentage of us "high-end" customers are more educated and aware of what a shock is doing in the car. When I realized that things like coil bind, "droop", and wheel articulation are a compromise the tenders made more sense: http://youtu.be/dqKsQKJClLU If you took the sway bar off the car, the helpers may not make sense, but this discussion is about Miatas and not tube-cars.
I almost bought an FCM set-up and I'm glad I didn't because I like the adjustable highspeed valving. I was really worried the money I spend was going to be a waste and that I wouldn't know the difference other than the lighter walled...I was very wrong. Suddenly the car did everything I asked it to, like a motor function; think it and the car does it. There was much less compromising the fast line to avoid bumps and curbs. It really came together after balancing, but the AST set-up was the biggest step of them all. The grip in this car was beyond comprehension, John had to sit in my car and show me that I could take it further.
I think FCM shocks are probably solid, but for the money I'd get the marlin. Sorry for typing so much, I'm lonely.
QFT Many of the autoxrs here have pimped around in multiple cars with the shocks being discussed here, and often at a Texas Time Trial where we can make back to back comparisons. For example, I know that Nathan has driven similarly prepped cars with 700/4xx rates and similar bar setups with FCM non-adj (JBH), AST SA (JJ), JRZ SA (me), and FCM DA (him). Those that have driven all of them recognize that they all are good shocks and can be made to be quite fast. My take is that FCM is the cheapest way to get a shock with lots of low speed compression. Sure you can rebuild ASTs, but then you are paying another $600 bucks, and suddenly you are approaching FCM DA prices. ASTs are the cheapest way to get a good light shock with reasonable road course damping. ASTs are also the easy button in terms of rates and setup. My JRZ's were not cheap, are lighter than ASTs and have good low speed damping out of the box, but are persnickety to install.The damping differences makes more difference than I would have imigined in setup. My car rotates well with 700/400, no rear bar, and the NB RB bar. Other cars with different shocks rotate similarly but need a smaller front bar, 50 lbs more rear spring, and often a rear bar to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
Where did I say they weren't custom? I talked to AST before ordering my shocks... Their office was OUT THE BACK DOOR of the office I've spent most of the last several months at. Sarcasm is lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
Let me know when you meet somebody who will let you drive their FCM car. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
Just to be clear to everybody... That is a joke.
Just to be clear to everybody I have FCM doubles with helpers... Even with sponsorship deal from AST they were still $2k more for the same valving/features minus being aluminum body.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
Yeah but I suck so I don't count. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
lol @ auto-x crew "disagreeing to agree".
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=429587
I've never auto-x'd my green car (due to extreme manliness) but my 700/400lb spring AST set up is more comfy on the street than my daily on Bilstein HD's with stock springs (which is already comfy). The ride is firmer, but my track car definitely has better high-speed valving which helps translate into more comfort on the street.Quote:
Originally Posted by imarcr2
Good for you. e-high fiveQuote:
Originally Posted by mr brg