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Such a sad, screwed-up situation! Condolences to the victims and families.
Legal/moral question: If you're sitting in that theatre and you are carrying a concealed weapon, and what point do you have the right (or duty?) to pull your weapon and return fire, knowing full well that you might a) escalate the situation or b) hit innocent bystanders while trying to protect yourself and your loved ones.
Discuss...
I'm still trying to get my head around what motivates someone to do what this 24 year old guy did? What in the hell is your mindset when you decide to open fire on a bunch of people you don't know in a movie theater???
How are you going to escalate THAT situation? Afraid he'll call in artillery? :punchout:Quote:
Originally Posted by miataspeedracer
My eye is usually drawn to an emergency exit opening when I'm seeing a movie. If the weapons were visible, MAJOR alarm bells would have started ringing and I would have dropped my popcorn. There's always that slim, TINY chance that it's some dumb kid in a costume, but the instant he raised his weapon anyone with a concealed firearm should have been on him like white on rice.
However, I'm not judging the people in there. Aas a guy who carries a gun every day (in the States), it would have been a pretty crappy situation. You're very exposed in a theater due to the seating arrangements and there is very little hard cover from someone down front. I've gone over that scenario in my head several times (usually when I'm seeing a movie :rolleyes:) and it's pretty much a no-win situation. There aren't many exits, and at least one of them is covered by the gunner. People are panicking and trying to get out, which makes them mass at the exits, which makes it even easier to spray and make almost every round a hit. The added effect of the gas is even worse and something I never really considered.
The only out is really to end the threat before he ends you. Speaking of captive audiences... ::Censor::
I know there are some gun enthusiasts on board, but I'm not one of them. What if no one had a gun in Aurora last night?
And don't tell me, "Guns don't kill people, people do", because that makes zero sense.
The shooter is a sick fvck no doubt, but this isn't the first time something like this has happened in this country.
RIP to those who lost their lives, and condolences to all affected.
Very sad news indeed and my condolences to the familys and victims as well. There is no justice good enough (bad enough?) for this slimy piece of sh!t.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
Now, to comment on your post sammm.
Wondering if no one had a gun is like wondering if no one had shoes. Love them or hate them, guns are and always have been a part of American society. I don't see this changing anytime soon. I am not a gun enthusiast but have no issue with those that are. I think gun control for the most part makes zero sense as criminals will acquire them any way. The gun laws only make it harder for honest citizens to own guns. I think a waiting period is prudent as well as a back ground check though. It should be extended to secondary sales as well.
Why doesn't the common quote, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" not make sense to you. Guns don't kill people. A gun is a tool. It has no ability to kill on its own. A hammer can be used to kill. So can lots of things but we aren't banning or regulating Home Depot.
The problem in my mind is not that we have lots of guns. Canada has lots of guns too but they aren't killing each other left and right. The problem is our society is driven by fear. The media is the biggest culprit in this. Two people get flesh-eating bacteria infections and all of a sudden it's an epidemic! As long as we fear, the folks in power have us distracted from the real issues. Sh!t. I'm starting to sound like Billy Blaze. I better stop now.
Mass killings are impossible without guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
I've gone over this situation in my head all day long since I pretty much always carry in theaters. I've come up with one realization that trumps all...the guy was <reportedly> wearing full riot gear: flack jacket, face shield, helmet, whatever the hell else the crazy fu**er had... Anyone who would have been carrying and pulled on the guy would have instantly invited them selves to be shot and would have made zero difference.
First the guy would have the advantage of a weapon already drawn and aimed. You would still have to draw and aim, which is a lot harder/slower than some people think. Then there's the caliber I know my little .380 wouldn't even made him flinch, I doubt anything less than the AR he was carrying would have, unless you patiently had a perfectly well aimed <lucky> shot...then there's the whole pandemonium/tear gas variable that puts anything like that way outside of reality.
I think a concealed weapon would have been irrelevant in this situation. I'm a big proponent of packing protection, but let's face it, any caliber that's concealable is only effective in a knifepoint mugging situation or something similar, and anyone carrying should be aware of this and not try to be a hero. All situations may vary and I have no idea personally how I would have reacted here, hope to God I never have to test these theories.
RIP all the victims, I pray for the wounded and traumatized, and I hope they do away with this psycho piece of human shit. Does Colorado have the death penalty?
**Disclaimer, i've been drinking, this post may not make any sense in the morning.**
I agree with Jiggerachi that unless you had a snub nose.44 things may change but a .380 would do anthing but piss him off. but a compact .45 might slow him down or whatever but at the end of the day the sick F@#%$ did it an hopes he burns in Hell for eterinty. the truth is the bad people will get weapons of any kind to do evil weather its legal or not. and its up to good, responsible gun owners to hopefully stop them if they can.... end rant
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Please raise your hand if you've lost an immediate family member to gun violence. I have, so this is not a hypothetical discussion for me.
I don't want to argue with the gun enthusiasts here, nor do I want to discuss the bill of rights. I respect your rights under the current laws, even if I don't agree with them.
1) if I am in a public emergency where there is shooting or violence and I suddenly see another person with a gun, I am going to try to disarm or injure them, then ask questions later. Simple instinctive reaction. Guns are too deadly for me to wonder if you are a licensed owner.
2) as has been mentioned, it's going to take a very good shot to incapacitate the well-armored and armed attacker in this dark, hysterical theater. How do you live with yourself if you injure/kill a bystander?
I hope I never have to be between a concealed handgun owner and another armed person, but I do know that both are threats to me. For the record, I served in the Army and have been a gun owner. Handguns do two things: start races and end lives.
My family in Ireland has never even heard of a shooting in their county, much less a massacre. How are US gun laws making our lives better again???
^ I hope you think that through before you do something stupid. A person (like myself) who carries every day will take a very, very dim view of someone trying to disarm them, and you're likely to get yourself shot.
It takes a good shot to incapacitate ANY attacker, not just one wearing armor. Like anything else, you have to plan for the unexpected. You're likely not going to make it to an exit, so making a stand is really the only choice next to dying. Injuring a bystander would be terrible, but so would cowering in the corner and letting a killer do his work. I personally know many people who have successfully defended themselves with firearms, and there are tens of thousands more cases each year. The PERSON is to blame, not the tool. We don't blame knives for stabbing people, we don't blame cars for road rage, and spoons don't make you fat.
It's awful that you lost a family member to violence, but that wasn't a tool's fault. It was a person who made a choice to kill.
...but they wouldn't be near as easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMonkey
I did say "What If"....there was a time when there were no guns and the playing field was level.Quote:
Originally Posted by black roadster
I know that's a pipe dream now.
If someone wanted to take you out they had to be smarter or stronger than you. Now any dumb fvck
with a gun can be the alpha dog.
Last Oct. we returned from 4 years in Japan, they have very strict gun laws and it doesn’tstop random acts of violence, there they use knives and vehicles.
For to the original question, carrying a gun does not mean that one has the skill and training to react appropriately in such a situation so no don’t juststart shooting and make matters worse. Just guessing but those who are trained will most likely do what they can anyway.
With the crappy knife/other bladed weapon laws Texas ALREADY has on the books, do you really think it would be a level playing field if guns didn't exist? Anyone bent on killing or destruction is going to accomplish their mission with whatever tools are available.
Heck, a CHL holder recently stopped a supermarket stabbing spree in Utah. Guns are not the problem.
Yep the guy seems to have taken every precaution to make sure he wasn't a victum of his own master plan...... They say he had an AR-15, a 12-gauge shotgun and at least one of two .40-caliber handguns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggerachi
So not like the spineless bastard had just a little handgun he was armed better than your average Garland drug dealer.
<note CHL holder who carries a .45>
Honestly I hope that if I'm ever in the situation like in CO that I'm smart enough to a) attempt to retreat and gain security for myself and my family and b) not rush fool headed into a firefight.
I think that there's a lot of bravado in the CHL community being spouted, but I'll be honest. If I'm in a crowded space (which I hate in any situation) and the SHTF I'm not exactly going to be Rambo. It's dark, unknown assailants with unknown firepower and protection, teargas, mass histeria/pandemonium... It's a lose/lose situation all around.
This is good.
Attachment 5811
^ive seen that photo showing up here and there and nobody seems to mention the BODY ARMOR. the guy walked in there prepared for a firefight...at least from small concealed arms. in my opionion there are zero similarities between the two scenarios. seemslike he expected to hit resistance, maybe he wanted to put some 'hero' down in his sick joker fantasy. doesnt look to me like he put up much of a fight with the cops, im going to bet he was counting on civilian resistance here...which, along with the specific timed music and boobytrapped apartment, makes this sick sonofabitch so damn evil.
he had some wierd joker game playing out. this is different from anyterrorist event weve seen. normal logic doesnt apply here.
Not really:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nails
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggerachi
Define what's 'good' about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nails
i had a feeling........http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_Ja...alse_flag.html
I dont think that is a reliable source... but we don't have the whole story just yet...
Mad monkey -I understand your point, but again, if I'm in the middle of that theater, you are as big a threat, and equally unknown to me, as the crazy fucker. Take as dim a view as you like, but if I'm protecting my family in a dark theater, my Army training is going to do it's thing.
This makes me even more sure that I want nothing to do with crowds anymore. One crazy fuck and a few over zealous Rambos is too much for me. Nobody is going to stab 70+ people in a theater.
Edit - just read the linked article. I can't really think of a good enough expletive to describe it, so I'll stick with "epic BS."
http://www.gagtics.com/wp-content/up...am-Lincoln.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by goofygrin
it's just too coincidental, now they'll use this as an excuse to put the TSA everywhere. screw that shit, they haven't done anything to "protect" us from anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofygrin
I don't know about you, but I'd feel pretty low if I took down the only person standing between a heavily armed bad guy and a couple of hundred innocents. Worry about getting your family to safety and not being a "rambo".Quote:
Originally Posted by OZMDD
EDIT: Just read the tinfoil hat article. REALLY? :confused:
This is good too.
Attachment 5812
Hero complex much?Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMonkey
Huh??Quote:
Originally Posted by OZMDD
EDIT: Me? I already stated that I don't know what I would do in that situation as it's a lose lose for the most part. Yet you're saying I have a hero complex when you're spouting off that you'd "take down" anyone holding a gun, bare handed?
Alrighty then.
Well what happened was definitely a bad situation due to one FU person.......knowing what we know what if 2 or 3 of the patrons had been armed and drew down on the guy? Obviously we have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been of that scenario......Maybe some innocent people would have died in the shoot out but if the total dead is less why is this a bad thing? Lots to ponder.
Mind you I am not a gun owner and have no problem with responsible gun ownership, just a thought.
The cinema in question doesn't allow concealed carry, so it's a moot point. Luckily, most in TX do.
OZMDD what if the other "shooter" in your scenario wasn't some chl rambo but an off duty cop, on leave marine or other "authorized" person? I think you should reflect on what you said your course of action was and determine if that's really what you'd do...
A home-made bomb/grenade would have been much more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by OZMDD
Anyone who thinks that I should become a murder statistic because I have no formal or tactical training does not value my life as much as I do.
These people are trained to identify themselves and avoid bystanders. I'm not planning to blindly assault anyone with a weapon, but I'm not ruling out anything if someone nearby seems threatening. Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this matter; I don't begrudge those who disagree or think I'm way off. I do question anyone who claims they would act differently if they were sitting with their child/spouse 10 feet away from someone firing a gun wildly, which is the scenario I envisioned with a panicking civilian. Had this conversation with my brother a few days ago (active duty infantry Captain, USMC), and he felt similarly.Quote:
Originally Posted by goofygrin
Sorry to stir the pot/offend; just have strong feelings. I'm done on this thread. Feel free to PM if further discussion is desired.