Street Tires in ER Rapid PAX

I run street tires. I always have, and maybe I always will. At ER events this year, I was entered into Rapid PAX automatically when I paid for the year in advance. For several years, I’ve been thinking about how infinitely small the possibilities are for finishing in the money on street tires. A good example was last Saturday. SpinOutF500 won street tire and finished 20 places out of the money in the RP. I have actually skipped the RP runs because it didn’t matter, and I could be ready to leave quicker.

I mentioned this to Mr. T after the Sunday event and asked if we could get a separate RP just for all classes on street tires. He said, “Send me a proposal.” I’m looking for input before I submit the proposal.

I’m not looking to get rich, but it is very frustrating when my best runs of the day count for nothing more than a reminder that I should have been faster when it counted. With a ST grouping in RP, it might be easier.

Other than Street Tire, what classes are required to run on street legal tires?
How do you think my idea would work?

I like that idea. My suggestion would be to mabye form up some sort of petition and get street tire classes (tire, sts, stx, stu, etc. . .) and find out if they would like to run a different pax.

For ER, it would be T & N classes. I suppose you could probably give the STS/STX/STU/STS2 guys the option of running their respective street prepared indexes in a street tire PAX challenge.

Street Touring classes already have PAX indexes that compare them directly to classes where R compounds are allowed. If you let the Street Touring classes run with the Tires class (which is already indexed by the same PAX, but doesn't benefit from R compounds) in a saparete PAX Challenge, you'll either have to handicap the Street Touring classes, or have an additional "street tire" PAX modifier for the Tire class, on top of the PAX indexes, to keep things reasonably fair.

In which case, I'd argue that we keep one PAX Challenge, but give the Tire class an additional "street tire" PAX index. For example, a TCS guy runs a 60.000, and his PAX Challenge time is 60.000 x 0.810 (C Stock PAX index) x 0.950 ("street tire" PAX modifier), for a 46.170 index time. A C Stock guy runs a raw time of 57.5 seconds, his PAX Challenge time is 57.500 x 0.810 (C Stock PAX index), for a 46.575 time. TCS guy in this case has a raw time 2.5 seconds slower, but wins the PAX.

The only problem with this suggestion is, how do you determine what a fair "street tire" PAX modifier is? 0.950? 0.970? What's an R tire worth? How do we determine it? And is it worth the same at the Bus Lot as it is at Pennington?

Additionally, you can't really give the Novices an additional PAX modifier, because someone could show up in NSTS (a Novice running Street Touring S) and benefit from a PAX index based on street tires PLUS the additional modifier "Novice & Tires Classes" modifier. Besides, doesn't ER's Novice class allow R compounds? If so, then they need to do their Challenge runs with the same index as the regular classes, imho. C'est la vie.

Giving the Tire guys an additional modifier and letting them run in the existing PAX Challenges is the only proposal I'd support, as it doesn't make any sense to split the Street Touring classes out with the Tire class to form a third PAX Challenge (for the reason I stated above), and I don't think the Tire class alone is big enough to warrant its own separate PAX Challenge.

Isn't Tire Class like a Team Cheap Bastard version of it respected class? Now you want special privlidges??

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Isn't Tire Class like a Team Cheap Bastard version of it respected class? Now you want special privlidges??

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We just like tires that don't chord after one spin. :punchout:

Halthing and I were talking about this at ER last week. What needs to be done, is to plug all of the times from the last few seasons of ER events of the tire classes, and the open classes. Someone is going to have to come up with the algarythm to compare them.

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Originally Posted by blackzx3_13

We just like tires that don't chord after one spin. :punchout:

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Heck those were used tires! ;)

Are the kids who played in tire class this year good enough to be in the money? I know I for one never collected one red cent in almost 4 years of ES and I wonder if my faster and higher skilled counterparts in ES ever got any pax $$$.

The PAX is you against the world and there are some darn good drivers who play ER!

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Originally Posted by blackzx3_13

We just like tires that don't chord after one spin. :punchout:

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Try to spin a little less often. ::Bleh::

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Originally Posted by altiain

Try to spin a little less often. ::Bleh::

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Well I decided to not drive like a :cat: and see what happenens.

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Heck those were used tires! ;)

Are the kids who played in tire class this year good enough to be in the money? I know I for one never collected one red cent in almost 4 years of ES and I wonder if my faster and higher skilled counterparts in ES ever got any pax $$$.

The PAX is you against the world and there are some darn good drivers who play ER!

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Truthfully, I have to agree with POS. As someone who has worked damn hard to get to a point where I can occasionally win money in the PAX, I honestly feel that if you want a shot at it, you need to invest the same time and money into prep as those of us in the Open classes do. If you're not willing to make that commitment, then I honestly don't see the need to create another PAX Challenge just so that you don't have to face the same level of competition.

Why not just hand out a trophy and $5 to everyone who enters? We'll just raise the entry fee to cover the expense of letting everyone win $5 in the "I Stock" PAX Challenge, and the trophies can all say Participant.

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Originally Posted by altiain

Truthfully, I have to agree with POS. As someone who has worked damn hard to get to a point where I can occasionally win money in the PAX, I honestly feel that if you want a shot at it, you need to invest the same time and money into prep as those of us in the Open classes do. If you're not willing to make that commitment, then I honestly don't see the need to create another PAX Challenge just so that you don't have to face the same level of competition.

Why not just hand out a trophy and $5 to everyone who enters? We'll just raise the entry fee to cover the expense of letting everyone win $5 in the "I Stock" PAX Challenge, and the trophies can all say Participant.

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http://www.creativeribbon.com/Partic...20Streamer.jpg

Just a quick reply since I'm tired.

ER does NOT allow R compound tires in Novice class, haven't for a few years now.

Software is the limiting factor I see. If you do the multiplier, then someone will have to do it after the results are ready for the trophy presentation. The software does 1 multiplier based on class. And T and N uses those multipliers. Any additional multiplier would have to be done by hand or spreadsheet, and that would have to be programed to do it as quick as possible and with little intervention. We ran into a spreadsheet issue with the Tire class last Saturday at the event. The wrong finishing order was announced.

We already take a little to long getting the results ready as it is. And from what I usually see, not many people stick around for the trophies and PAX money hand outs, usually.

If the Tires have their own PAX then they have to have to run something other than an R or W in from of the class letters. Not sure what the software will let us do on this.

Finally, I just don't see it happening, plus if it did, I don't see but just 3 people getting money and at the most 5 people.

More later after I sleep, think about it and look at the software.

Later,

SpinOutF500 ::Flag::

BTW, if I was in a rear wheel drive Miata in Tire class, instead of my understeering pig of a Subie, I might have done better in PAX. ;) :D

I HATE :-x Understeer!!!

Here! Here! Altiain!

:burnrubr:

SpinOutF500::Flag::

Actually, I've rethought my position. I think we should have a separate PAX Challenge for Tires class cars only. I've got a spare set of Stock legal wheels I could slap Azenis on, and I'd love to run in a PAX Challenge free of Mod cars.

Come to think of it, I'm sure lugnutjon, Kestrel, and POS would feel exactly the same. Be careful what you wish for, onething - you just might get it.

:burnrubr:

Pardon me if I'm reading too much into this, but I think onething may be more interested in the theoretical "participation factor" more than winning something.

And Gary... Please, by all means, drive my car next time. Won't bother me a bit. I'd like to see it do well under someone's command...

::Pop::OH YEAH?!? :jocolor:

I guess I was thinking more about technical and software issues. I appreciate everyone's input. Keep it coming! :clap:

1. Thanks to tailchaser for answering the class question and SpinOutF500 for addressing the techinal issues
   
2. Even if someone is good enough to be in the money, there is no way they will ever get there on street tires.
   
3. This new class will be a smaller group than the regular R group, but the W group only has 5 or 6 entries per event.
   
4. If everyone with street tires changed to them for RP, it would be great for the mod cars.
   
5. Changing back to street tires if you want for the PAX runs is an issue that could be addressed. May be tough in the middle of the heat.

I have no problem losing a butt kicking contest - just don't make me stand in a puddle of grease while everyone else wears cleats.

Hey... I like that last analogy.

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Originally Posted by onething

1. Even if someone is good enough to be in the money, there is no way they will ever get there on street tires.
   
2. This new class will be a smaller group than the regular R group, but the W group only has 5 or 6 entries per event.
   
3. Changing back to street tires if you want for the PAX runs is an issue that could be addressed. May be tough in the middle of the heat.

I have no problem losing a butt kicking contest - just don't make me stand in a puddle of grease while everyone else wears cleats.

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ratt_finkel has been in the money before on street tires, iirc.

As for the Women's PAX, it exists primarily to encourage members of the fairer sex to particpate in our sport. Ladies Classes also exist at the National level, unlike Tire Class. As I see it, Tire Class doesn't warrant that same kind of special consideration.

I'm not talking about changing back to street tires for PAX runs. I'm saying that if the Street Tires PAX Challenge looks easier than the regular PAX Challenge (i.e., a better chance of winning money), some of us Open Class drivers might choose to run Tire Class next season to take advantage of that fact. Why not?

You have the same access to cleats that the rest of us do - you just choose not to use them. No one is faulting you for that choice, but at the same time I don't agree with the need to offer you special compensation because of your choice.

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Originally Posted by altiain

ratt_finkel has been in the money before on street tires, iirc.

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That is correct. I was the majority of the time in the top 15. Took #1 at the end of the 04 season, granted it was raining. But who's counting :punchout:

tailchaser, thanks for the offer. I will definitely take you up on it next year. :D

I have to run in FM at the last SCCA event to make sure I hold onto 2nd for the year, Greg has an outside shot at second if I don't run and he wins the class. Can't let that happen!

I slacked off to much at the SCCA events early in the year so Rick got me for first. (I got first and he got second in ER.) Actually, we ran older tires than they did and just couldn't make up the difference.

Later,

SpinOutF500

One of the problems I have always had with ER PAX is the fact that some folks would run one class for trophies, then switch to the easier class, or switch cars completely for PAX. My opinion is that if you should run the entire day in the same class, PAX and all...

I tend to agree with Iian's assessment, however, a true street tire class PAX, minus novices and regular Street Touring classes, is not a bad idea. It could even entice novices to leave novice class and enter T classes after a couple of novice events...:burnrubr:

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Originally Posted by OzCop

One of the problems I have always had with ER PAX is the fact that some folks would run one class for trophies, then switch to the easier class, or switch cars completely for PAX. My opinion is that if you should run the entire day in the same class, PAX and all...

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When it was originally proposed you could not run a different class. I don't remember when this got changed. It could be the Rapide Pax is considered a different series from the Challenge Cup series and that is why you can change classes.

It has been in the rules since 1999. That's as far back as my records go.

From the latest set of rules:

ARTICLE 12 - RAPIDE PAX CHALLENGE SERIES

A. The Rapide PAX Challenge will further be referred to as R.P.C. The R.P.C. will be held in conjunction with a regular Challenge Cup Event. Drivers participating in the R.P.C. may drive in a different class than which they competed in for the regular Challenge Cup Series runs. Entrants that have registered for the regular Challenge Cup Event may, in addition, register for the R.P.C.


In my opinion, if the car is legal for the easier class then it is ok to do. Some of the cars that go to the easier class in RPC are running in a harder class for the regular runs, probably because of the competition they get or the car they will be running in that class isn't ready yet. Or, in my case, last year we ran in AM (both regular and RPC) till we had a legal motor (mid season)and then we finished the year in AM and ran FM in the RPC. Did it that way to complete the year in AM for the Year End Trophies and not to mess with the battle in FM.

Later,

SpinOutF500

BTW, the legal motor is stronger than the illegal motor.
I.E. - FASTER!!! :burnrubr:

A bit off topic, but...

I log in, work on a reply to a topic and when I hit submit reply it says I'm not logged in and I have to log in again.

Is this normal? :confused:

I have lost a few reply's in the past because of this. Now a days, I cut the text before I hit submit so that if I lose it I can just paste it back in. And hit Submit again.

Thanks,

SpinOutF500

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And I think I have to have cookies enabled for another web site or 2.

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