Divisionals are the next logical step up from local events, why not give everyone (aka tire class) the opertunity to give it a try.Originally Posted by Prova7
IMHO some need to take a bigger picture look at tire class. Many of those of us who have run in tire class now run in open class, tire class is what gets ya sucked into autocross.
At the Houston Region solo board meeting last night we spoke about issues/desires/planning that is relevant to the Divisonal series. The topic with more intrest, and an almost unaminous vote was a request to limit the classes to National classes. No regional only Novice or ST classes and no F-Jr classes.
True but they're trying to raise attendance at a divisional level and I think a tire class would do that. Nationals already has plenty of people on R comps and no one in their right mind would go play in stock on street tires.
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Hey modernbeat how many cars do you guys average per event in tire class down in Houston?
So we want to raise attendance, and limit possible attendees. Am I stupid, or is there something wrong with this picture?
Edit: Please, no comments about my stupidity.
What's left of a '96 Miata with stock clutch.
My car exceeds my driving ability. That's the only possible explanation.
Because you don't need a tire class to give them an opportunity! They sign up and run the appropriate open class!
Divs are a step up to "real" competition. That means Nationals classes. No Novice. No Tire.
I am the Cookie Monster, not the macaroni monster.
Nothing wrong with the picture, just your perception. The attendees are not limited! They already have a class to enter and run. It's not like I'm proposing CS be ineligible or something.So we want to raise attendance, and limit possible attendees. Am I stupid, or is there something wrong with this picture?
I campaigned an uncompetitive car (even on street tires initially) for years. Yes, I never won. Yes the events were just as fun. I entered my first Divs and Tours in my second season I think. Got my butt kicked. Didn't care. Had fun. Putting an "N" or "T" on the side of my car would have made me no better a driver or changed my fun factor.
Last edited by Prova7; 11-29-2007 at 05:30 PM.
I am the Cookie Monster, not the macaroni monster.
Per event? Regional tire classes average 31.7 over the 11 regional events we've held this year (349 total over 11 months). Average total attendance is 156.4 over 11 regional events.
From the data, the regional ST classes are attended most haphazzardly, and by a majority of non-members. The numbers look OK until you realize that the repeat attendance in these classes is horrible. In that case, there's a strong argument for rolling the competitors back into the appropiate Stock or Street Prepared class and just keeping the STO class for unlimited mod ST cars.
Our ST classes are based on Street Prepared rules on 140+ hardness tires. Many Stock cars in put in ST* because of their tires only, but our regional ruleset allows all the SP mods.
I consider 6 events per year to be a regular attendee. It takes 7 events to be considered for our runoffs. In all the regional ST classes there are only 19 regulars and only 14 who made the minimum number of events to be eligible for our runoffs. 93 of the 349 regional street tires entries were people that only competed in a single event in that class. Those end of the year totals will change with our 12th event in January, but not much.
STA
17 people, 45 total entries, 3 people with 6+ entries, 2 with 7+
STB
15 people, 36 entries, 2 with 6+, 1 with 7+
STC
20 people, 56 entries, 5 with 6+, 4 with 7+
(More regular members here than any other regional ST* class. If the NB Miata had a National ST class this would change.)
STD
21 people, 46 entries, 1 with 6+, 0 with 7+
STE
21 people, 49 entries, 3 with 6+, 3 with 7+
STE-L
1 person, 5 entries
STF
10 people, 16 entries, 1 with 6+, 1 with 7+, all others are single event entries
STO (Street Tire with unlimited mods)
45 people, 96 entries, 4 with 6+, 3 with 7+
Full year results are at:
http://houscca.com/solo/results07/yep.htm
Individual event results can be found at:
http://houscca.com/solo/results.asp
My perception is that very few T drivers want to pony up $60 (?) to run in the same class as race tire cars. Tire class at Divisionals = at least a handfull of entrants that would not show up otherwise. The only way you are ever going to know how many more drivers will show up is to try it one year. If it does not attract more drivers, don't continue to offer it.
My
What's left of a '96 Miata with stock clutch.
My car exceeds my driving ability. That's the only possible explanation.
This is a tricky issue. I can see reasons both for and against a Tire class. The part of me that wants to grow the sport and participation says definitely include the tire class. The purist (stuck in tradition?) part says a divisional is the first 'big step' you need to take if you're getting serious. Like others have posted, that may mean playing with the big boys on the tires you drove in on.
I'm in complete agreement on not allowing a Novice class, however, so that may make me look like I'm talking out both sides of my mouth. Go figure.
The real question is what do we want the divisional series to be? If we want it to be a stepping stone to Nat'l level competition we have to nix the T classes. If we want to grow divisional participation and make a little money for the divisional solo fund so we can do other cool things the T's must be there. Good questions both, and I don't know the right answer. Traditionally the divisional was to be a stepping stone, but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.
We need to remember that the division is made up of 10 regions and we're lobbying hard to get 'new' divisions to host an event. I think it would be really cool to head West or East for a divisional in addition to South. It's important that a 'new' host region have a successful first event and the opportunity to make a little money for the region. We should take the input of a potential new host and apply a little extra weight to what they think will work well for them.
Autoxmax, Mrs Autoxmax and I will be attending the divisional meeting this Saturday in Waco. We will definitely pass on the input received here.
A Z06 is just like a Miata, but with the other half of the motor . . .
If there had been a tire class last season, I would most likely have attended at least one out of town divisional. Instead, I only attended the local race... on street tires.
Since I plan to run Rs this season, I will try to attend all of them.
Could be that I am missing something here. I understand the prelude to Nationals. But I thought that was what the National Tours did. Does having a Tire class or Novice class some how tarnish or diminish the other classes at the Divisional level? Do we have so many people showing up at these events that we would not have time to run all the classes? What would it cost to try it for one year, provisional?
Did you bother to pay any attention to tire class this season, heck it was one of the most competitive classes running.
Ya really can't put tire class in the same context as novice class at least not in around here.
Plus as SoloRX7 touched on you need participants for this to fly, look at the car counts for tire class this season.
Yea what he said!
BTW. I bet if ya banned the mod kids from divisionals you could get more door slammers to show at events.
I'll second Ken's statement. Would it somehow hurt the "real" classes to give a PAXed Street Tire class a chance at Divisionals this season? I certainly don't recall having so many entrants at LaGrave this past year that we had to turn people away.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
I'll step up and open another can of worms and insist that an indexed anything isn't "competitive", it's "fun". That's not right or wrong, good or bad. It just is what it is.Did you bother to pay any attention to tire class this season, heck it was one of the most competitive classes running.
IMO if the Tire guys want to support the Div series and their local region they can enter the appropriate Open class. The real argument here isn't about having them having an opportunity to enter and support their local region, it's "I want to win a trophy".
All IMHO. I support the board and our region in whatever decision it makes.
I am the Cookie Monster, not the macaroni monster.
Forget the index, most of the top 5 in tire are usually Miatas running within .10-.50 of a second. That's more competitive than SS and AS usually. That may not be the case next year with a few people jumping ship to ES and other cars though.
VW Bug in running shoes
M Porcupine sedan
M Porcupine coupe
Crusty old e46 beater
Battery Powered appliance car
I disagree. It's not "I want to win a trophy", it's "I want somewhere that I can have some competition". Showing up on street tires to run in Open classes doesn't offer competition.
For the record, I went to my first National Tour in DSP, in an automatic Honda Prelude. On street tires. I know all about stepping up in a completely underprepared car. But not everyone is that dedicated (or stupid, depending on how you look at it). I had fun. But I have a lot more fun playing in a class where I can at least theoretically be competitive.
Divisionals aren't Nationally sanctioned. They aren't run by the National staff (unlike a Tour, Pro, Pro Finale or Nationals). They can be whatever we want them to be... so why make them a carbon copy of a National Tour, just without the contingency money? Why not make them a true stepping stone between local event and National-level competition?
Adding an indexed Tire class isn't going to dilute the Open classes. It isn't going to degrade the quality of the event. In fact, it won't negatively impact anyone. Adding the class gives a lot of active local Region competitors an incentive to come out and try a Divisional. Tire class competitors will add entries and revenue to events that - historically - have struggled to attract entrants. What's the downside?
By the way, those who say that higher level events should only have National classes might want to take a look back at the '06 Pro Solo Series - the one that had indexed "Marque" classes at a lot of events. I remember this class at the Dallas Pro, and the explanation was that it was a bridge class to entice the more casual autocrossers to try a National-level event. If we can have an indexed bridge class at a Pro Solo, why can't we have one at a Divisional?
The precedent is there. Does the SWDIV want to be inclusive or exclusive?
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Does the SWDiv want a smaller group of dedicated autocrossers who compete and paricipate in the event organizaiton and support the club, or do you want a large faction of casual two-events-per-year competitors who don't do anything but arrive and drive and are often a drain on the event organization due to not having the experience (novices) or bad behavior (litter, chirping tires in paddock, fast street driving near the event).
That's how half of the regional tire competitors in Houston could be described. Many of the regional tire competitors are not even members.
On the ProSolo classes, the bridge class was not well received or attended and IIRC, was not offered later in the season.
The Divisonals used to be a BIG deal. You had to attend and win in a Divisional to attend Nationals. Then the National Tour started up to bring a National level event to areas that did could not support a Divisional and the requirements to get to the Solo Nationals changed. More recently they've changed again to allow folks that have not attend ANY other events to buy their way into Nationals.
Tradition aside, I want to attend a Divisonal that provides a high level of competition from dedicated competitors. Almost all competitors that are dedicated are running in National classes because dedicated competitors compete in National level events. To make room for the very few dedicated competitors that run a Region-0nly class makes a lot of demands on the event organization.
So explain to me again how allowing a Tire class dilutes the competition in the Open classes?
I think your stereotypes about Tire class competitors are misplaced. They certainly aren't indicative of many of the competitors in our Region. In fact, our Tire class last season included at least one former/current National level competitor (who changes cars like most people change underwear
I've been running on R comps for almost a decade. I like the high level of competition in the Open classes and at big events, which is why I run where I run. I would personally welcome the inclusion of a Tire class at Divisionals, and I don't think they would be detrimental to the overall quality of competition or event organization in the slightest. Nor do I see how this places some undue demand on the event organizers.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
I agree with Iain. I think most people here are thinking one tire class using the PAX because that is the way we do it in the Texas Region. Not alot of tire classes as in a-stock tire, b-stock tire ect. I don't see adding one class as being a big demand on event organizers.
Robert
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