Why is this thread on this forum?
Oh yeah, thanks for returning just to reply on my thread. You had been silent since '07. We need more intelligent Miata guys on this forum, since there's no such thing as too many.Originally Posted by Savington
Wealth, power, and experience are apparently not enough to save us from social influences. Groupthink, as described by I.L.Janis, is the tendency for group members to reach a consensus opinion, even if that decision is downright stupid (Janis 1982).
Why is this thread on this forum?
Because he is still trying to get someone to agree to his position. So he brought it here to see if anyone cared.
You'd think after two pages of 'rational and LOGICAL discussion' he would've taken the hint.
"The fact is that if you want a sports car, the MX-5 is perfect. Nothing on the road will give you better value.
Nothing will give you so much fun. The only reason I’m giving it five stars is because I can’t give it 14." - Jeremy Clarkson
'04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 #1682, Velocity Red born 3/17/2004 Habanero
Hard Dog HCHTDD, 15x8 Silver 6UL, 225/45 Hankook RS3, Tein Flex, More coming soon...
Meh...if you like the 1.6L that much.... and everyone wants to get rid of their 1.6L for 1.8L, supply>demand, = lower prices for yourself? Don't bother convincing anyone. lol
Juxtor sees it the same I way I do. If you have the 1.6l already, use it.
I've proven my side of the discussion over and over again. Even dyno's used as examples to prove I was wrong showed exactly what I have stated. I'm sorry, but 10-20ft/lbs more torque 500rpm earlier isn't enough to merit spending extra $$$ to get a 1.8l. Not with the ability to erase that issue with some extra items that are LESS than the 1.8l block. Higher CR pistons and/or meth injection kit and you are exactly where you would be with a 1.8l motor, yet costs the same or less. And something I noticed while browsing MT.net last night....from Savington, "There aren't any good cams for the 1.8l yet."
http://www.camshaftshop.com/home?pag...ategory_id=117
That's actually the first thing I thought of. That guy on MT.net decided to go with the 1.8l 84mm instead of building the 1.6s. That means he has 2 1.6l blocks that are gonna be super cheap, but I already have 2 spares, so I don't really need any more.
Wealth, power, and experience are apparently not enough to save us from social influences. Groupthink, as described by I.L.Janis, is the tendency for group members to reach a consensus opinion, even if that decision is downright stupid (Janis 1982).
You haven't proven anything beyond your own stubborn ignorance. 20ft.lbs is 10% in most of the setups we're talking about here. That's a huge amount of power for very little money. For an extra $700 on top of a $2000 motor build, you not only get an extra 240+cc of displacement, you also get a far better flowing head. I'd be willing to bet that you cannot make up the difference in torque, turbo spool, and top-end power in a 1.6 for the same $700.
Last edited by Savington; 08-02-2009 at 04:31 PM.
So your point is...? Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Besides, if you've already made up your mind, why are you posting this in the first place? All you're doing is wasting time and bandwidth.
"The fact is that if you want a sports car, the MX-5 is perfect. Nothing on the road will give you better value.
Nothing will give you so much fun. The only reason I’m giving it five stars is because I can’t give it 14." - Jeremy Clarkson
'04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 #1682, Velocity Red born 3/17/2004 Habanero
Hard Dog HCHTDD, 15x8 Silver 6UL, 225/45 Hankook RS3, Tein Flex, More coming soon...
Really? I've mentioned it a few times already....
Meth Inj. Kit - $400 (there are cheaper, but it's a good estimate for a complete kit) Allows you to run more timing, which will increase low-end torque, turbo spool, and top-end power.
9.5:1 CR pistons - $100-300 depending on where you get them made. This is obviously on top of the price for regular shelf pistons, which you are getting for both engines anyways. This should be used in conjunction with a meth kit to offset the higher knock likelihood with the higher CR. The HC will also have more low end torque, better spool, and more top end.
Using just the Meth kit should be enough to give you the same performance as the 1.8l, and adding the HC pistons would just add to it. So if you built the 1.6l right using that $700, you will have a better all-around engine.
I know everyone was basicly jerking off over there on MT.net when they saw the timing that Hustler was running on his LC motor, now imagine that on a higher compression motor. Cause that is what you will be doing with the Meth kit.
Same timing + higher compression = ???
Take a guess. Try not to slap yourself for not seeing it before.
...and it's actually only 226.2cc more for the 84mm 1.8l vs max bore 79.5mm 1.6l.
Maybe you'll read what I put and actually consider it before you determine that, just cause I posted it, it is no longer valid.
I'm stating stuff that is already true. Just because I state them doesn't mean they are no longer are true.
Wealth, power, and experience are apparently not enough to save us from social influences. Groupthink, as described by I.L.Janis, is the tendency for group members to reach a consensus opinion, even if that decision is downright stupid (Janis 1982).
My grammy taught me as a wee babe... "There's no replacement for displacement."
Max bore 1.8 is 85.5mm. 292.16cc difference. Good try, though.
Raising CR won't improve spool, either. A lower CR motor is less efficient, which by definition means more of the gasoline burned gets turned to heat energy vs torque. That heat energy is exhausted through the turbocharger, and since half the energy used to spool the turbocharger is heat energy, the turbo will spool faster. You're more than welcome to prove me wrong, here, since theory is just theory, but I would need an identical setup with ONLY CR CHANGED - not a new exhaust, not a different head, no BS - that shows a higher CR motor spooling a turbo faster.
Once you've spent the $700 on all of that, and let's say you do end up equal to the power, spool, response, etc. of a 1.8 - the 1.8 guy can still add meth on top of his setup and make more power than you, whereas you're stuck. So you can spend the same money you'd put into high CR pistons and a meth kit on upgrading to a 1.8 setup, get the same results... and then have an upgrade path if you want more. No matter what you spend on a 1.6 to make it equal a 1.8... the 1.8 guy can do the same mods afterwards and step ahead.
There is a reason lots of people swap to 1.8 motors. There is a reason people remove built 1.6s to install built 1.8s. There is a reason many people who build 1.6s end up regretting it. Just because you think something is a bad idea, doesn't actually mean it is.
Relying on a dirty dyno WB is an unsafe practice. In most cases it doesn't tend to jive with any onboard WBo2 sensors.I'd first like to state: Who the hell tuned these? 13:1 AF for a FI car? IDIOTS!
Wow it's flat, it's also low. Even if both those dynos made exactly the same peak HP at redline, the 1.8L would make more torque throughout. That equals a faster car.Second Note: 1.6l has a flatter torque curve. Torque doesn't peak and then drop off like on the 1.8l. Yes, it's less, but add Meth Inj (=+timing) and that wouldn't be the case.
It dropped off a lot of boost up top.Third Note: Why the hell is the 1.6l peak whp at 5800rpm? Mine, even with a POS Greddy actuator that would fall from 10psi to 7-8psi @ redline made peak whp at 7k rpm.
no.First note: Does the 1.6l have cam gears? Cause it has a similar low at the lower RPMs that mine has. More extreme, but who knows if he didn't overdo it slightly trying to get more up top.
In your effort to overlook everything that's benefictial about a 1.8L turbo setup you need to quit worrying about AFRs.Second Note: WHOA...was this a baseline after a new ECU installed? The 1.6l AF is AWFUL!!! 14:1 AF is great for a FI car.More than a full pt between their AF readings.
Please, by all means don't notice all the extra low-end you get with the 1.8L....Your Meth kit cannot provide all that torque down low.Fourth note: Same peak torque, and both hold a nice plateau. Difference is exaggerated by either cam gears being overly sex'd, the awful AF, or both.
You're insane and need your mom to tuck you in at night.Both dyno's show exactly what I have been saying, there isn't enough of a difference between a 1.6l and 1.8l to mandate that all 1.6s go in the trash and everyone go to a 1.8l. That small difference is a slightly higher CR and a meth kit away from being erased and possibly reversed. You know, about the same price as swapping to a 1.8l.
Now here you go, two dynos with the same peak HP. One makes "peaky" torque and it drops off towards redline. the other makes flat torque and it actually rises towards redline:
which would you prefer?
Last edited by Braineack; 08-03-2009 at 06:57 AM.
Under Options in your profile you can make it display 30 posts per page instead of like 5.
Chris
91 Miata (#3), Rattle Can Grey(previous owner), Greddy Turbo @7 PSI and Manifold (Only items remaining from the kit), TDR I/C, Godspeed Radiator, RM DP, 2.5 Enthuza Bipes, BEGI AFPR, ACT, Lightened Stock Flywheel, Yellow Konis, FCM on Stock Springs, HDM2S, MOMO Wheel, Ratsback Front CF Lip, Black Rota's on EcstaXS, Corrado Rotors & XP8's on Front w/ 1.8 rears.
http://austinmiata.com/
Wishlist: Megasquirt to run 12-13 PSI, White non-spray paint job, 8" 6UL's, RX7 LSD, Evans Waterless Coolant
Daily Driver: 2013 Club edition in Pearl White Mica
Lightness? What's that? I drive a PRHT!
So, if you get the meth kit, do you have to put tinfoil on the windows and plant your Miata in a trailer park somewhere east of Aubrey?
'94 Black & Black & Tan
'99 head swap, JR header, TDR intake & header blanket, MegaSquirt, RB hollow bar, Tein Flex, 15x8 6ULs, HD M2 Sport, FM cat, Borla cat-back, black '95M interior, MOMO Zebrano, IL Motorsport console...
Dyno Days
8/16/08 (bone stock): 103.1 hp/99.0 lb-ft - Dynojet
8/23/08 (Borla cat-back): 108.2 hp/104.1 lb-ft - Dynojet
8/13/11 (more stuff...): 126 hp/116 lb-ft - Mustang dyno
Roger Moore: the Danny White of James Bonds
05 MX-5 Mazdaspeed #1024 Titanium Gray Mica
I thought you had that power.
Last edited by Radio-Active; 08-03-2009 at 10:54 AM.
05 MX-5 Mazdaspeed #1024 Titanium Gray Mica
This is like the fight that Peter Griffin had with the chicken mascot that started in front of the restaurant, continued across countless venues, and dragged on way past the point of being funny.
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