NC STR Project - Tires or Coilovers First?

[strathound]

A big thing is when you start changing the car it’s easy to make it slower because of a poor choice on spring rates or other bad decisions. At this point you will really not be able to tell if the car is handling bad because of a poor setup or bad driving. Example, the car is pushing bad on corner entry, is it because it’s too stiff in the front or because you are breaking to late and not getting off the brakes enough before turning in? You may end up chasing the setup when it’s really a driving problem.

Good point. I'll bring this issue up when discussing the modification with one of the local shops. I'm hopeful that I can find someone that has done a few of these already and can recommend a starting setup. Thanks for the point of view.

[OZMDD]

I'm hopeful that I can find someone that has done a few of these already and can recommend a starting setup.

Umm, it is your car and your money, but you already got exactly these things in this thread. Its no problem to do whatever you want, but it is annoying to solicit input and then disregard it. People take time to answer you, so they get perturbed when they feel you wasted their time.

Good luck.

[TexasStig]

What this thread needs is more jaded opinionated drivers! Oh... they're loitering over on the "Free Track day" thread.

[strathound]

Umm, it is your car and your money, but you already got exactly these things in this thread.

I was replying to someone else. And in his post, he was saying that I might not want to do the springs now because I might get the right springs without more experience. This thread does not contain any of those things. But I got your point.

but it is annoying to solicit input and then disregard it

So ... you've never solicited input and then went your own direction? Ever? Interesting. Actually there were several people that recommend the springs. So if I took your advice, I'd be disregarding theirs. Puts me in a bit of a pickle with this whole dfwmiata posting etiquette. I'll try to do better.

[slowchildmiata]

What you really should do is drive the courses in reverse. Forget everything else.

[TexasStig]

What you really should do is drive the courses in reverse. Forget everything else.

That might be good for learning car control, but there's no way he'd be competitive with the stock R gear ratio.

Buy tires and change the transmission.

[slowchildmiata]

That might be good for learning car control, but there's no way he'd be competitive with the stock R gear ratio.

Buy tires and change the transmission.

Just change the final drive in the rear end. Everybody enjoys a good rear end service job.

[strathound]

Ok, in an effort to get back on topic for those that read this later and are looking for meaningful advice, I found this article on GRM where they built and raced an NC car in the STR class:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/pro...da-mx-5-miata/

Their approach was to upgrade the tires first:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/pro...-for-our-mx-5/



Then add coilovers second:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/pro...ts-coil-overs/

[strathound]

Some interesting comments from that article:

It’s a question racers often ask: How much faster are proper competition tires than regular street tires? One second? Two? Three or more?
Thinking back to our first competitive outing with the bone-stock car at the Dixie Tour, we were easily 4-plus seconds off the pace of the prepped cars on proper tires and wheels. We had a lot of ground to make up.
Recently we ran some baseline laps with the OE 205/45R17Bridgestone Potenza RE050A wheel-and-tire package. Then, after doing nothing else to the car but bolting on the 255/40R17 Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec tires wrapped around 17x9TRMotorsports C3 wheels, we were well over 2 seconds faster on a 55-second course.

Using their out-of-the-box settings, we ran laps on the Tire Rack test track with the OE Bridgestone tires as well as the Dunlop Z1 Star Specs. Not surprisingly, our lap times on both tires were faster than when we drove with the OE suspension. We were a bit faster on the Dunlops, which is good news: We keep closing the gap to the front-running cars. Subjectively, the car now feels livelier and responds quickly to driver inputs.

[EricJ]

Find the fastest guy's out there with cars like yours and copy them as your budget allows. That was my plan. Now, the limiting factor is certainly not the car, it's clearly the driver. Evo school is very good, I need to do it again, and again, and again.

[strathound]

Deets on the Evo school?

[EricJ]

http://www.evoschool.com/

Salina, KS was the closest beginner class available last year. OK site, old concrete runway. Good grip, a little narrow.

[strathound]

http://www.evoschool.com/

Salina, KS was the closest beginner class available last year. OK site, old concrete runway. Good grip, a little narrow.

Wow, those classes are really affordable:

http://www.evoschool.com/shop/index.php

Is their program licensed like the Skip Barber school? I've heard discussion of some sort of licensing you can get from Skip Barber that many of the local tracks recognize. But at $3000 plus airfare ... that's hard to come up with right now.

[OZMDD]

[altiain]

Wow, those classes are really affordable:

http://www.evoschool.com/shop/index.php

Is their program licensed like the Skip Barber school? I've heard discussion of some sort of licensing you can get from Skip Barber that many of the local tracks recognize. But at $3000 plus airfare ... that's hard to come up with right now.

You don't need a license to autocross with anyone, and Evo school doesn't offer one. They do offer top notch instruction, however.

Skip Barber (and several dozen similar organizations) offer competition schools to earn an amateur road racing license. You would need one of these before you participated in wheel-to-wheel racing with SCCA, NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, SVRA, etc. Of course, you'd also need a car that met the requirements to go wheel-to-wheel racing, but that's a whole different story.

I appreciate your enthusiasm. It's good to be excited about amateur motorsports. Let me offer you some friendly advice as someone who has been doing this for fifteen years and has seen lots of people come and go and make the same mistakes over and over again - many of the same mistakes I made when I started.

• Autocrossing is a skill, and it requires practice to master. The best thing you can spend your money on at this point is seat time, seat time, seat time. You will need at least some seat time and experience to even get your money's worth out of an Evo school, so practice every chance you get.
• Don't throw a lot of money at the car right now. See point #1. You will spend thousands of dollars to make your car faster, just to get beat by some veteran in a 20-year old bone stock Civic. Also, adding all kinds of fancy adjustable suspension pieces to your car just gives you more ways to screw it up until you learn enough to know what you're doing.
• Don't forget point #1.
• There are a couple of exceptions to rule #2. You can (and should) buy some good street tires. Buy ones that fit the wheels you have now. After a year of doing this you might decide you want to enter a different class - or buy a different car - and it would suck to have spent a grand (or more) on wheels you no longer need that you bought because you thought you knew what you were doing.
• Don't forget point #1.
• Don't forget point #2.

That's my $.02. I wish I would have listened to that advice fifteen years ago. It would have saved me a lot of money and frustration as I was learning this sport.

[strathound]

Very good advice Iain. I really appreciate it. Please understand that I've been wanting to do this now for about a decade. Now that I have a car, I'm a little bit like a dog who's owner just came home from a day at work. I'm bouncing off the walls to get out there and drive. I realize this is obnoxious. Keep the newspaper swats to the nose coming (not you, but you know what I mean) and I'll settle down eventually.

I'm not really trying to beat anyone right now (other than challenging myself to do better than some of the other novices if possible). I realize it's a skill thing. Riding in Jerrett's 110 hp car and throwing down a 60 second time with my weight added to the car was plenty of an eye opener about skill vs. car. Don't get me wrong, he's got that thing setup on rails. But he also drove the tires off that thing. Should have seen the look on my face as we entered that first corner.

That said ... this is a hobby of mine. It's ok to make mistakes. That's part of the fun of it. I need an outlet for my energy and enthusiasm. The more I think about these things and bury myself in details that are way ahead of my skill level, the less time I spend thinking about how much I miss my wife and all that S@#$. This is therapy, except when it isn't.

So ... I'm sure I've rubbed some people the wrong way. Believe me when I say, I do value your input. I'd like to lower my car and begin adapting to the tighter suspension. Why? Because I've saved up the money ahead of time and want to. If that pisses people off, there's not a lot I can do other than say ... sorry.

Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it.

Michael

[wrx74]

... I wish I would have listened to that advice TEN years ago...

(bet most experienced autocrossers will +1 this!!)

[strathound]

Quick update: As I'm prone to do, I've changed my mind. I was researching tires and rims for the step after the suspension ... and well I was pulled in another direction by the lure of 9" wide rims. Yes, the tires are still 140s, but the wider rims support a wider tire ... 50mm per wheel. That's 200mm of additional rubber on the road. Plus, the new rims looked pretty banging on the GRM site.

Here, I'll do it for you:



Next step, pray they fit.

[OZMDD]

Without a fender roll, 9" wheels will not fit. Ask JimH about a shredded set of week old star specs. Fortunately, its very easy to do a nice roll on the NC. Take it to TDR, they have done several NC's.

What tire size are you getting? Even though you can run as big as 255, I've found the 245/40 to be a very good size. Also, some brands are wider than other. Remember: the contact patch is the same size whether you run 235, 245, 255. Only the shape changes. Picked a specific tire yet? I've driven most of the choices, if you'd like any feedback.

You should get in contact with TXCoyote on here; he built an STR 2012 PRHT last year and can save you a lot of trial and error.

[Miatamoto]

A counter point to a lot of the advice here. Modify the car however you want. After autocrossing for a couple of years you'll have a better idea of how serious/competitive you want to be and what class you want to compete in. Build the car for how you want it on the street, that's where you'll spend most of your time enjoying it.

If you find that you want to compete then it'll be time to make some decisions about how to modify the car, buy a new car or co-drive a car that is already properly prepped for a class. I started in a pretty modified M3 that wasn't a class killer. I learned a lot in that car and prepped a Miata for stock class when I decided to be more competitive. No regrets here at all.

My only suggestions are to stay on street tires and have fun learning. Seat time is king and ask for instructors to ride along. Good ones will teach you everything you'll see at an Evo school.