Reply With QuoteAltian has a place that he goes to. He should chime in shortly. Does anyone know a place that does alignments and corner weighting as well?
Alignment
Okay.... definitive answer -
Where to get an alignment, a good alignment (as in our competitive alignment ) done and what numbers to give them!?
Altian has a place that he goes to. He should chime in shortly. Does anyone know a place that does alignments and corner weighting as well?
Okay... how about this -
Rear Toe - 1/8 IN
Rear Camber - -1.8º
Front Camber - -1.5º
Front Caster - +3.0º
Front Toe (per side) - 0
Versus
Rear Toe - 1/16IN
Rear Camber - -2º
Front Camber - -1.5º
Front Caster - Maximum
Front Toe (per side) - 1/16 OUT
Differences in lay terms?
See this thread (again), which will refer to another thread (again)... :P Are you still taking your medication like the nice doctors told you to?
http://forums.dfwmiata.com/viewtopic.php?t=664
Both are quite conservative IMO. I don't know anything about your car (stock, not stock?) so these are my recommendations based on doing this about a zillion times on a spec miata for numerous different drivers and tracks from laguna seca to thunderhill to limerock. Settings can be even more radical for autox if you have the adjustment and are able to deal with the *extremely* quick responses of the car (some people call this twichy, I call it GOOD!).
I don't particularly like your camber settings. I would do things in this order and see where you end up:
Maximize front camber, then maximize the front caster (you won't be able to get too much of either). Make sure both sides are the same in both caster and camber. The camber should be within 0.1deg and the caster within about 0.2deg. You should be able to get about -2deg of camber in the front. The rear should be between 1.8-2.2 depending on course conditions.
I don't like the idea of using the rear toe out to make the car rotate (it appears thats what you're trying to to do). I've had much better luck starting with 0 toe and gradually dialing in rear toe out (to make the car rotate in steady state), or front toe out (to help the car turn in a little more sharply. I would do this after testing the car with 0 toe and always after setting everything else up. Be careful with the front toe out, the miata has quite a bit of bump steer.
Its been my experience that most grasroots racers get too hung up on the numbers and miss the big picture. Don't think that the numbers anybody gives you will definitely work for you (even mine! :p). They are just a baseline and you have to tune the car to do what you want it to do (and you also have to know what it should be like when its right, thats tough for many people). Always remember, its your goal to maximize overall grip. Don't ever try to 'loosen' one end of the car unless you've already done everything you can to 'tighten' the other end.
Some general guidelines for miatas where you must tune the balance of the car with the alignment (i.e. stock suspension):
You can't have enough front camber. Hoosiers and many other race tires work best at 3-5deg. Street tires usually like a little less, between 2 and 4 works well on most cars.
Once you've maxed out the front camber just use the rear to tune the balance of the car (unless you can change springs/bars).
Toe is generally not your friend. Exceptions are stock cars where there just isn't anything else you can do to the car to make it work. I've never seen anything over 1/8" total toe (1/16 per side) work well, EVER.
I've never seen a stock car with too much caster. Its your friend, use it. If you're car isn't stock and you're somehow getting more than 5 or 6deg, come talk to me and we'll go from there.
Sorry for the novel. Its what I do.
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
I appreciate your help... however, these aren't my numbers. I bought my car stock and I don't know if it's had an alignment any time in it's recent history! I'm looking for something rather aggressive that will help me improve my auto-x'ing. Twitchy doesn't bother since both my hands are usually on the wheel anyhow. I want this car to be fun and quick!
Stock car? or no?
Stock yes... for now... but until I can afford to get nice springs and shocks... however, I still, now, want to get a good aggressive set up on the car for auto-x.
I guess I should have added... I do have a strut bar and run on Azenis... that's about it.
Go to the Firestone in Richardson. Buy the lifetime alignment. It's on sale for $139. Try an alignment. If you don't like it, get it done again. And again. And again. However, don't worry about anything in the "specs" floating around except toe. You want all the camber and caster you can get - just make sure it's even from side to side.
I would think the BUR is limbered up enough that you can squeeze some camber out of it... Get as much camber out of it as you can, front and rear. Since you're still starting, make sure there's at least a touch more in the rear.
Once the trained gorillas have pushed and pulled on the front end for max camber, have them poke and prod for max caster.
1/16-1/8 total toe-in in the rear should be enough to keep it from going to toe-out under hard cornering and helping you check your taillights. Don't worry about it. You don't want any more or any less, but you probably won't be able to tell the difference in between.
Yup, what tailchaser said. The only thing I would add it to try it with some toe in first, see how it does and adjust from there. If it seems like it doesn't want to rotate well, move toward 0 until its the way you want it.
Thanks fellas... with all those numbers floating around the net... it's a tough call as to what to do!
Please re-read my post. DON'T FRET THE NUMBERS. With the exception of toe, they all say get the most you can. It's easy.
Get thee therefore to thy alignment guy.
And mine!
I think I was misunderstood on that comment... sorry... I meant one can be easily confused with all the numbers... therefore, your opinions are highly appreciated! Thanks!Please re-read my post. DON'T FRET THE NUMBERS. With the exception of toe, they all say get the most you can. It's easy.
Get thee therefore to thy alignment guy.
The Firestone off of Campbell and Coit, right? Who should I ask for? Any special TC passwords I should mutter?
One caveat to that statement - in stock form, the front end of the Miata is much more limited on camber adjustment than the back end. It would be quite easy to say "get the most that you can" and end up with a car with -1.0 degree in the front and -2.5 degrees in the back. This does not tend to contribute to balanced handling.Please re-read my post. DON'T FRET THE NUMBERS. With the exception of toe, they all say get the most you can. It's easy.
Get thee therefore to thy alignment guy.
Around a half degree extra in the rear seems to be a good baseline. A little less (all other things, especially rear toe, being equal) will make the car easier to rotate, a little more will have the opposite affect.
Evilspeeder makes a great point, however - what works for you is likely to be slightly different than what works for someone else. Everyone tends to like their car setup slightly differently. I've probably been through 10 different alignments on the Miata over the past three years, just playing around to see if I like this setting or that setting better with my own personal driving style.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
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