I want to thank altiain for a great day out on the track :)
Lots of cold, windy fun!
You're welcome! Thanks for letting me take a couple of laps in the four-door beast. Fun car! Worst part of my day was coming home to see my brand new tires sitting on the porch - they'd been delivered while I was at the track yesterday.Still, the Sumitomos acquitted themselves well for full tread street tires.
BTW, why is it that every time I sign a student off solo at ECR they go four off in the very next session?
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
LOL.Originally Posted by altiain
BTW, why is it that every time I sign a student off solo at ECR they go four off in the very next session?
I swear... I was on cold tires! When I was going back onto the track after getting checked out, I was waiting at the end of pit road and I watched another guy go off. I think by that session everyone was getting a little ballsy.
I only had two wheels off, thank you very much.
On the track, I am fearless.
If you were as slow as me, you wouldn't be afraid either.
1994 M Edition
CSP 67
altiain -- and any of the rest of you who have driven at both Motor Sport Ranch and Eagle Canyon Raceway -- how do the two tracks differ from each other? I've driven MSR twice (although never on the larger 3.1 circuit), but have never driven ECR. That's about to change next weekend as I'll be running with the Maverick PCA bunch. What should I expect? Anything I should be aware of?
"That which does not kill us, just makes us madder"
Cletus Nietzsche (Friedrich's half-brother on his sister's side)
+1
Bobby
RED RULES!
90 Miata, 04 Rubicon, 05 Boxster
I'm still a noob (been to MSR 3 times,1.7 CCW 1x and 1.7 CW 2x) and ECR once (Saturday). Here's my hot sports opinion:
- the surface at ECR isn't as smooth. Rough braking points, rough "off the line" points, rough transitions, etc. On your first go rounds, be sure you know where they are an be prepared for it.
- runoff is extremely limited in some areas. If you are going to go off, make sure you do it in the right place. And go off straight! An M3 went off this weekend and bent his lower control arm.
- The track is FAST, but you have to slow way down in order to make the turns. Be prepared for it. Ask altain how "exciting" it is when you don't slow down enough.
- Make sure your brake pads are up to snuff. I burned about 40% off of my Ferodo DS 2500's this weekend. Stock pads would have crumbled (the stock pads are a Ferodo OEM).
- Brake fluid! I flushed on Friday with Amsoil DOT4 and never boiled them. Another Evo did, but he's got 500hp and was on Hawk DT10 something or other blue pads.
- Tires! If you're on street tires, don't be surprised if they let go 15-18 minutes into a session. When mine did it was apparent because things for very drifty!
- the pit out is very dangerous/slick/dusty. I drifted around that corner once (even though altain warned me about it). Take it carefully.
- gas is a touch more expensive than the station 12 miles away (this weekend it was 2.50/gallon for 93). At 24 miles round trip, it was cheaper for me to just pay the extra 45 cents a gallon.
- the facilities aren't nearly as nice as MSR. You might be on gravel where you're setting up your car, so bring a mat/rug/whatever if you really need to lay around your car.
Where are your shift points? There are 3 places (#3, #5, #9) on the track where I was on the rev limiter in 3rd for a second (no sense in shifting). 3rd is ~88mph. There's one place (the back straight) where I was on the limiter in 4th (~112mph). Shifting to 5th there really jacked up the speed but made the braking MUCH harder since it was coming over a rise and bumpy. Experiment a bit but don't focus on the speedo lol.
On a turn by turn basis (again, remember, n00b):
1/2: Have you ever been skiing? There are two "ridges" that you can either avoid or use as little moguls to orient the car. When you hit the grooves right, it REALLY makes you fast. If you hit the ridges, it really upsets the car. The braking zone into #1 is pretty rough. So be ready for it. Turnin to #1 slower than you'd expect and you can really put the power down through #2.
3: like all the hairpins, brake hard before it, but not too early, and power out of it (there's a lot more runout room than there appears). When I did a session with altain I learned this corner well. You really have to almost "drift" the RR wheel onto the curbing.
4. Really not much of a corner, and the turnin cone is about 20' too deep for my car. Tap the brakes, turn in, and then power around the apex.
5. brake hard into this corner, to the cone/stripes, then turn in well and hard. You are going to be going up the hill, so use that to your advantage to make the corner nicely. Use all of the trackout because there's a straight here that's a fun one :) Note that it's downhill into this corner, so it will take a touch longer to slow than you expect. The transition here is a bit rough and you might skip over it if you are on a stiff suspension.
6. The temptation will be to brake early. You'll cook your brakes if you treat this like a red light and coast in. Get to the rise/over the rise and brake hard (depending on your comfort level). It's a little rough and you're going to feel like you're going off. Learn your limit and take the hairpin nice and smoothly. Don't exit hugging the apex or you'll waste a lot of speed. The transition on the line is rough, so expect a little sidestepping. The exit is rough too, so be prepared for it.
7. Rough rough rough braking zone. You come to a rise and have to turn. This is asshole pucker #1 corner, so get it right and you'll feel great. Get it wrong and you're not going to be happy. Turn in is later than you think, hug the apex/inside corner to setup 8. Brake a bit earlier than you think you need to because the rise is going to lift your car. I started braking earlier, then hitting the brake again, right before turnin to replant the car.
8. Fun corner, slingshot type. Lots of runout, so make sure you use all the track.
9. Asshole pucker #2. Brake hard, then learn your car's handling here as you try and get that RR tire onto the stripes. You don't have to track out all the way, but this corner will setup #10 in a big way.
10. This section is a bit slick (it's where I went off). Be wary on cold tires. High HP cars seem to hug the inside line. Altain showed me to take it about 2/3 out, turn in before you can see the apex cone and really power up the hill to the trackout cone. I think this actually is the faster line because I was carrying a LOT more speed out of this corner than the cars I followed out of it.
11. Rough braking zone and if you screw it up you're going off into something hard. I constantly overcooked the entry here. I think it's downhill, definitely downwind. Brake a bit harder than you expect and you can be on the gas the whole way though the turn. Don't hug the apex exit onto the straight as you'll burn unnecessary speed/momentum.
Guys,
MSR and ECR are both fun tracks, but they have very different characters. Depending on your car, ECR is a “busier” track. It has longer straights than MSR, which means higher speeds. I get into 4th gear in the RX-8 four times in a typical lap at ECR, whereas I only hit 4th once or twice a lap at MSR 1.7.
At the same time, ECR also has several more low speed hairpin turns than MSR. While I go to 2nd in the RX-8 twice in a typical lap at MSR, I do it 4-5 times per lap at MSR.
By contrast, goofygrin’s Evo X never needed 2nd at ECR… but it also has more than twice the torque of my car and drives twice as many wheels, so it rockets off the hairpins with a lot less effort.
ECR also has more extreme elevation changes and several blind corners, where the best line requires commitment to a track out point you can’t see from the apex. In addition, ECR also has less runoff in several critical corners. This makes ECR a track that really requires familiarity to comfortably push the limits of your car.
ECR is a good track. I personally feel that MSR is a more nuanced track (every corner is different, where most of the hairpins at ECR are pretty similar), but ECR is entertaining in a different way. It is much more of a workout, and much less of a momentum track, imho.
I think you guys will enjoy it. I do.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Great writeup by goofygrin. It's always a treat to instruct experienced autocrossers, because they tend to read the track much faster and retain much more detail than those who don't have autocross experience.
+1 on the rough comments. ECR has been partially resurfaced since I was out there last fall, but it is still a much rougher, bumpier track than MSR.
One last comment: on the hairpins, remember the old racer's adage: "Slow in, fast out". As goofygrin found out several times, if you overcook the entry to the hairpins it kills your exit speed, which in turn kills your speed down the following straight.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
WOW, great feedback guys! I really appreciate it.
I had my car tech inspected and the brakes flushed with ATE Gold this weekend. My brake pads have only 8,000 miles on them, but I expect to have to replace them and possibly my tires (Pilot Sport 2's) after the weekend's workout. In order to learn the track a little, I'm watching youtube videos and reviewing the track map -- I just want to be as prepared as I can be so that I can be as fast as I can be!
I really wanted to come out an play with you guys this past weekend, but couldn't get a "hall pass" from my team sponsor for two weekends in a row!
"That which does not kill us, just makes us madder"
Cletus Nietzsche (Friedrich's half-brother on his sister's side)
when's the next one?
TXMC: Drinkin, shootin, racin!
April 12th is the next open track day. I think it's a fantastic value considering there were I think only 22 cars out there (plus the instructor cars) -- and the 22 were split into two groups, so 10-12 cars on a 2.5 mile track. So... no trains, no complete newbies (well I guess they were in the other group
I may be able to attend, provided I can shake the car down prior to that. I really want to run one session, on a warm day to see if my car is going to survive before I waste a track day.
TXMC: Drinkin, shootin, racin!
Find a member at MSR or ECR and have them take you out on a member day. It will be much cheaper :o)
Here's a pic of asshole pucker #2:
From inside the car, it doesn't look like there's enough room... but there is.
+1April 12th is the next open track day. I think it's a fantastic value considering there were I think only 22 cars out there (plus the instructor cars) -- and the 22 were split into two groups, so 10-12 cars on a 2.5 mile track. So... no trains, no complete newbies (well I guess they were in the other group
I'm a big fan of the single day event format that Apex and ECR are following. Smaller run groups means less traffic and fewer trains, which makes for a more enjoyable (and safer) event. Plus, I really like the single day event format because you don't end up burning the whole weekend at the track.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Here's a pic of the last turn, overcooked by a Z06... (he was on street tires, trying to follow Charles Cram [on A6's] and me)
I agree. If its more than a 1-day event, I don't really have the energy or schedule for that. Besides, after a weekend of track action, I'm exhausted. After one day, I get my fix.
TXMC: Drinkin, shootin, racin!
The top left of this picture is bunghole tightener #1 and the cars are on the downhill slingshot into tightener #2. There's trackout room here, so use it wisely to build up speed.
Yeah, I can see a one-day format being a BIG advantage! The PCA thing is both Saturday and Sunday, I suppose so that people who trailer their cars long distances to participate get plenty of track time for their effort. While I know I'll have fun, my guess is I'll be very tired on Sunday afternoon, and -- dare I say it -- ready to just go home!
"That which does not kill us, just makes us madder"
Cletus Nietzsche (Friedrich's half-brother on his sister's side)
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