blew my timing belt, accessory belt, and radiator hose...

[Radio-Active]

I'm there with you on the hoses. Just got to that point, actually.

[black roadster]

BTDT. Crappiest hoses to replace on an installed motor. They go on easier.

[Jiggerachi]

SHE'S ALIVE!! Man what a beating of a job.

Quick question though. Engine appears to be in good time, but there's a weird sound. Sounds almost like a supercharger whine. Is that the new timing belt teeth breaking in? Is it normal?

[boisking]

Usually that is the sound of an overly tightened (toothed) belt. On superchargers, they are tight for a reason. It is worth removing the plastic cover and rechecking the belt tension.

[Rogue]

TB is too tight.

[Bigsrturbo]

/\ what rogue said!!! Take that cover off and retighten it...

[Jiggerachi]

Ahhh...shit.

I can't get to the car now, but is there any way to remove the covers without tearing it back down?

I'm not sure how it got too tight. I followed the 1 5/6th turn and release the tensioner instructions. Is there a different method? Id hate to get it back together and still be tight.

Edit: so I read on miata.net that some belts make this noise for a few days while breaking in regardless of tension. My question is how bad is it to drive it like this...how do you know if its just breaking in or is too tight. I can say for sure the tensioner is not any tighter than the spring naturally pulled it.

[black roadster]

Drive it. If it breaks you know how to fix it.

[OZMDD]

If Rogue says it, you'd best believe it. You can hope the pointy board people are right and it fixes itself, but Rogue's answer - even though its not what you want to hear - is pretty close to Miata gospel.

[Jiggerachi]

You guys say it like it's so easy. How important is the plastic cover, it's just a dust cover right? I might just dremel a small circle around the tension bolt :) only kidding.

I'm going to try a few things first. I just remembered the cover was warped in one place. It might be rubbing on something. Also going to check the tension on the accessory belts as well. If I have to i'll break it all down again. I don't want another near catastrophic failure, but it's going to have to wait, i'm already over a week behind in my class from this damn car and have some projects due.

[Jiggerachi]

Managed to get the covers off without disturbing the valve cover(surprisingly easy, but getting them back on is another story).

I pulled the sparkplugs and retensioned it using the by-the-book 1 5/6th method. Fired up the car and the belt was still whining. Just for kicks I adjusted it little by little untill it stopped whining and it was obviously way too loose, it was flopping over .5", closer to .75". Saw some shiny marks on the engine cover where the belt could have been rubbing, so I bent it back as best I could(not much). Reset the tension using the 1 5/6th method again and cranked it. No whine. Wow that must have been it I thought. Reassembled everything cranked the car and bam it's whining again...

Loosened the accessory belts and the whine went away mostly. I called it a night in full victory mode, drank a celebratory beer. Cranked the car this morning and it was back to full whine.

Screw it, it's just a loud belt I guess. I told you guys...but yall made me take it all apart anyway

Car runs fine, with one exception. I think i've lost some low end torque. The engine takes a dive somewhere between 2.5 - 3.5k, where it used to have a lot of pep. I must have reinstalled the CAS just a hair off. Anyone have a timing light I can borrow? I'm cooking up a home made randall style cold air intake so I wanted to try advancing the timing again anyway.

Thanks for all the advise everyone, she's back on the road.

[cam76034]

I have a timing light and I'm close by. Let me know and I'll go hunting for it.

[black roadster]

..or if the belt was loose, you jumped a tooth again...

[Jiggerachi]

...DAMN YOU WILLIAM!! I hadn't thought of that untill now...it's going to bug me incessantly untill I pull the damn valve cover to make sure.

I don't think the belt was that loose. When installing it at maximum slack it was still pretty tight, I wouldn't think it would be able to jump a tooth that easily...but machines exert more force than you know, so anything's possible I guess.

If it did jump a tooth, I would think I would have a little more than a faint loss of low end torque wouldnt I? That's more than a couple degrees of change right? Either way the valve cover isn't all that tough for a little piece of mind, I might as well pull it later this weekend when i'm working on the intake.
ugh.


Edit: Wait, wait, wait... when I set the tension(for the 3rd and final time) I lined up everything at TDC via the sproket mark and the I/E marks on the metal cover. I then turned the engine a full 3 revolutions to triple check, and the marks still all lined up perfectly. True, it was late, and I couldn't see the top of the cams to count the teeth, but if it was 1 tooth off anywhere on the belt it would have been pretty obvious at that point. I think i'm ok, actually...just need to set the timing.

If it still duds then I'll know I have a problem somewhere.

[Rob®]

Edit: Wait, wait, wait... when I set the tension(for the 3rd and final time) I lined up everything at TDC via the sproket mark and the I/E marks on the metal cover. I then turned the engine a full 3 revolutions to triple check, and the marks still all lined up perfectly. True, it was late, and I couldn't see the top of the cams to count the teeth, but if it was 1 tooth off anywhere on the belt it would have been pretty obvious at that point.

Not necessarily. You can get the marks to line up "close enough" that it looks like they are correct but still have 20 teeth between the gears. That's why you should always count the teeth regardless of it all looking "perfect." Well, it'd be harder to have happen that way after rotating the crank a bit, but would still be possible.

[Jiggerachi]

^ what would a car feel like with the belt off a tooth? I know it's all subjective to which gear jumped, but wouldn't it run like crap? Above about 3.5k the engine sings like it always has. As the engine warmed up the 2.5k dip was less noticable, but still was there. If I hadn't driven it in a while I may not have even noticed. Seems like being off a tooth would be worse.

Either way it's not that hard to check I guess... I would have to pull the damn plastic covers again as well to check TDC again.

[black roadster]

People drive around unwittingly all the time with a tooth off. I've done timing belts where the owner got a surprise bonus of more power. I'd pull the VC and line up the marks. Then count the teeth. Shouldn't take more then an hour. Biggest PITA will be cleaning up the old silicone at the cam towers.

You can check TDC by the notch on the crank pulley. Should be at the T mark.

[Jiggerachi]

^yea that's what i'll do, its not that big of a job, only it'll be the third time im in there...at the advise of you s. It'll have to wait a couple days though, i've got a midterm that was due last week!

So which is the magical gear that gives you more power?

[Jiggerachi]

Pulled the cam cover again. see the pics. I think i've found the intermittant whining problem. Look at how far back the belt is riding the gears. That can't be right.






I counted 19 teeth, but i'm not sure if the crank is in the correct place. Looks like it's either advanced or retarded by a couple degrees, if i'm reading everything right. I'm going to start pulling stuff to look for anything that might be out of whack causing the belt to ride the back of the pulleys and the harmonic balancer to see if the cam gear jumped a tooth, I hope not because I would need to go rent another torque wrench...

At this point...I'll pay someone who knows what they're doing a good six pack or something if they're bored and wanted to come look at this. I'm pretty handy, but i'm getting into problems that I can't just google or ask forums...and it's my daily driver, i'd like to have it back to reliable as soon as possible.

Anywhoo...back to wrenching...

[Jiggerachi]

I've found these threads on Miata.net. They reflect exactly my problem...
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...ing+belt+whine
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=399912

In this case the water pump was out of spec at the seat of the tensioner or idler pulley causing the pulley to sit crooked and make the belt ride the rear of the cam gears. Looks like the only option is to pull everything and either get lucky and find some debris under a pulley or replace the water pump and see if it still does it. I'm not sure if you could see any difference to the naked eye.
...unless anyone has any better ideas? Looks like i'm going to be hitching rides to work until the weekend. Man this shit is frustrating, I'm buying a third car as soon as I can.

This pump is a new rock auto pump that I bought second hand 6 months ago so I doubt I could return it, i'll probably just take a loss on it if it is bad. Does someone have a water pump sitting around taking space? I guess I would need a 2nd one to test, but wouldn't want to swap it again. I could buy or trade depending on if this one is bad, I just don't want to have to buy a new pump if this one turns out to be good. I dunno, just thinking out loud again.