Reply With QuoteWhat do you want as an end result do you plan to race it or just drive it to Sonic??
Thought you had a good day job, why don't ya buy the Tein Flex setup??
I'm going to bet Miatamoto is going to say Tein's, but that's just a guess.
Let's Talk About Shocks/Struts and Springs
I would very much appreciate it if we could have a discussion about aftermarket suspension set-ups. I'm asking this, obviously, in the context of the Civic Si, but it should be broadly applicable. My fear is that I am operating under a lot of half-understandings and half-truths, and I would like to get some clarity on a few things.
In looking at suspension options for the Si, there seems to be a great divide between Tein-type coilovers versus other set-ups. For instance, the Tein Flex set-up seems to be the "hottest" set-up currently available for the Si. It also costs $1,900.
Here's the big question I have: how much better is this than something like this Koni Sport Kit from the Tire Rack?
Or this Koni Frequency Sepect Dampening Kit with Eibach springs?
Finally, what Koni is calling a "threaded" kit seems similar to the Tein coilovers. Is this correct?
The coilover/threaded kits seem to offer ride height adjustability. Is this the primary advantage, or is there something more in the actual design that renders coilovers superior? And if they're superior, why?
Maybe all of this is blindingly obvious to all of you, but if I'm honest with myself, it isn't obvious to me. So thanks for any help/insight you can offer.
S.
Last edited by srivendel; 12-10-2006 at 11:44 AM.
What do you want as an end result do you plan to race it or just drive it to Sonic??
Thought you had a good day job, why don't ya buy the Tein Flex setup??
I'm going to bet Miatamoto is going to say Tein's, but that's just a guess.
Pretty much everybody who can afford the Teins buys them, but I'd like a clear understanding of why they're so superior. I mean, Koni's threaded set-up costs about $700 less than the Teins. Are the Teins priced that high because they can be, or is there a good reason for it?Originally Posted by POS Racing
I'm going to bet Miatamoto is going to say Tein's, but that's just a guess.
We're not talking about a high end sports car here. As much as I like it, it's still just a Honda Civic Si. I'm fine with spending $5,000 to tart it up a little bit, but I can't see spending lots of money doing so. If I wanted to spend serious money, I would have bought the 350Z Track model to begin with and called it a day.
The car is a daily driver that will occasionally be autocrossed. I doubt it will see any track use.
What do you want as an end result??
Low rider look?? Teeth jarring ride??
What are the spring rates on the Koni kit and the Teins???
I would only recommend adjustable coil-overs if you're going to be constantly changing your setup. The adjustablity is a nice feature but a pain in the ass to be fussing with (and when you count in that idea of constantly getting alignments done after a change is made.)
I speak from experience on this one... for the old Passat I bought a set of very expensive H&R coil-overs. They were the best product on the market, however, they were not the best for my application. I switched out the H&R's for a set of non-adjustable Eibachs and had a much better experience.
My point is this, don't always go with the fanciest or most expensive option. First define what it is what you want to do with the car and then gather the best options under that definition. Then decide what you want to purchase...
You are very wise, Bean-san.This is exactly the sort of issue I'm worried about stumbling into.
S.
Warning! Lots of ?ahead....
srivendel, let's strart with a primer on why performance cars have lower and stiffer springs, followed by the difference between lowering springs and "coilover" kits.
First, it's no secret that lowering and stiffening a car can - when done properly - make a car faster around a track. Here are some of the basic reasons why:
- Lowering a car lowers the center of gravity. When all other things are equal, a car with a lower CG will develop higher cornering forces, because it transfers less weight to the outside tires at any given cornering speed.
- Often, street cars are limited in the amount of static negative camber they can be aligned to. This is especially important on McPherson strut cars (like your Si), which do not have good camber curves (the change in camber relative to the roll angle of the car). Increasing negative static camber can help the car's contact patches work better at cornering limits, thereby generating higher lateral grip.
- Stiffening the spring rates has a threefold benefit:
- First, it allows the car to be run lower without fear of bottoming out the suspension, which allows a lower CG (see point #1).
- Second, it allows a car's suspension to "take a set" quicker in response to a change in direction, which improves transient response time.
- Third, on a car with poor camber curves (most McStrut cars), it limits the defelction of the suspension, allowing it to operate in a better range of the camber curve.
Note that the above is quite a simplification for the point of this discussion, and realize that just because some 1000# spring rate does wonders for handling on a smooth racetrack does NOT mean you're going to want to tolerate it on your daily driver. This is why Mick kept asking what you want to do with the car, because the best choice for a dedicated autocross or track car is not going to be the same as the best choice for an occasionally autocrossed daily driver.
Now, why are "coilovers" so much more expensive, and what do they do that you can't do with a good set of struts (in your case) and lowering springs? First, a set of coilovers offers height adjustability. This is nice even for the average enthusiast, because it allows you to tailor the ride height to your particular useage. Got some rough roads in your daily commute or big speed bumps in your parking garage? That set of "one size fits all" lowering springs might not give you enough ground clearance. The converse can also be true - you might want that slammed tuner look, but the lowering spring syou buy might not be low enough to suit you. So, the first benefit of "coilover" kits is height adjustability.
Second is the ability to corner weight the car (you'll need to borrow a set of scales to accomplish this). This allows you to adjust ride heights to equalize the car's crossweights (LF+RR, and LR+RF). What is this good for? Long story short, it allows the car to turn as well going left as it does right. This, of course, is going to be of greater benefit to someone who is serious about extracting time on the track or autocross course.
Now, what's that all mean to you? It means that the "best" setup for you is going to depend on mutliple things: what you want out of the car, what kind of ride comfort/performance tradeoff you want to make, and how much adjustability you want/need.
You've answered the first question, which means I can safely recommend that you not worry about dropping $6k+ on a set of triple adjustable, monotube, remote resevoir Penskes or Ohlins. You don't need them. I can't help you with the second part - you'll probably need to find some local Si owners with the popular setups and get a real world ride with them to answer which system best suits your particular ride comfort/performance needs. As to the 3rd part, again only you can answer that: do you want/need ride height adjustability? Do you want to be able to adjust shock settings? Do you want separate compression and rebound adjusters?
One thing I would definitely suggest is to do some research and ride in as many differently set up Sis as you can. That will help you determine which kit is best for you, since there is no one magic setup that everyone will like.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Awesome read, Iain. Thanks.To answer some questions implicit in your post:
1. Do I want to be competitive in SCCA?
Well, I would like to make some modifications to the car that will bump it out of its Stock class into something like Street Prepared. Trouble is, I'm not willing to make enough modifications to make it super competitive in SP or any of the more exotic classes. I want the car to be a "good" autox car but I don't particularly care about winning a particular class. Does that make sense or is it totally?
2. Does the car need to be a good daily driver?
Yes. I'm OK with a stiff suspension, but I think those guys who drive around bouncing at high frequencies over every bump look like complete dorks. I want the ride to be well controlled but sophisticated and completely road-worthy. Something along the lines of a well-tuned M3 would be ideal.
3. Budget?
I'd like to keep all modifications (engine, suspension, and brakes) to $5,000ish. My current thinking is:
- new suspension
- new brake rotors and pads
- Comptech cat-back exhaust
- Comptech cold-air intake
- Comptech shorty header (emissions compliance is a must)
- Hondata ECU reflash
- wheels and good racing tires (realizing that this will likely push the budget above $5k and that's OK)
That will (hopefully) make the Civic a $26k car that is fun to drive as a daily driver but that won't embarass itself on an autox course. I'm just trying to make good decisions with regard to the parts I buy.
S.
It's a shame you didn't get a better car to start with, now your having to throw all this money at it to attempt to give it the possibility of maybe being competitive.
How big of a deal is Autocross to you? I can think of 1 time in all these years that I have seen you at an Autocross. Why not make the car what you want and don't sweet the stuff that may never be an issue for ya.
As far as auto-x goes, I think you can do the things you want to do and run in STS, on street tires. Not sure about the ECU stuff though
"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague longing for something salty" - Peter Egan
Well, twice, but you're right: I didn't autocross the Miata very much. I would like to autocross the Si more.
S.
So get some rims and some decent "tire class" tires this winter, then run a few S2K autocross events and figure out what the car needs.
S.
Sriv, I'll make the same suggestion to you that I make to almost everyone who wants to mod their cars to "be more competitive" or "faster on the autocross course" - save your money.
You've got a shiny new toy. You've got some money to spend. There are a whole lot of vendors out there who make shiny, pretty go-fast bits, and it's only natural that you want to buy some of those bits and bolt 'em to your car. Everyone else is doing it, right?
Problem is, you can spend $5k on spiffing up your car, I'll rent a Hyundai Accent, and I'll still be faster around the course. Why? Because I spent money upgrading the single most important part of any performance car - the driver. As a bonus, upgrading the driver works in any and every car you'll ever drive (with the notable exception of an Elise in "ice mode"
This is not a slam. I wish I'd listened to the fast guys eight years ago when I started autocrossing with my spiffy new Honda Prelude. I didn't. Instead, I bolted a lot of shiny go-fast parts to it in a failed attempt to "make it faster", made it a relatively unpleasant daily driver, and guys like Gerry Terranova would still show up in old sh!tbox Honda Civics and beat the pants off of me. Because they upgraded the driver.
Suspension upgrades are doubly dangerous. It's hard to screw up a car with a performance exhaust - even if it doesn't make 18 gazillion horsepower like the manufacturer claims, chances are it won't slow the car down or make it turn worse. Shocks and springs are not the same, and the more adjustability you buy yourself, the more rope you've got to hang yourself with. Contrary to what Super Street or Sport Compact Car would have you believe (hmm... magazines that derive 95% of their revenue from advertisers trying to sell you go-fast parts), most modern performance cars are pretty capable right out of the box. It's really easy to screw that up when you suddenly add a whole bunch of adjustments that you really don't understand.
A good alignment and a good set of tires will have a much greater impact on your overall lap times than $5k worth of go-fast goodies, and you'll have the added benefit of a car that doesn't beat you senseless on the street. I'd suggest you spend that money on a performance alignment, a second set of wheels, a stickier set of tires (not necessarily R comps, but something better than what came on the car), and a whole bunch of seat time. Not only will you end up faster, but you'll be happier in the long run.
Just my $.02, from someone who has "been there, done that".
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Unquestionably the right advice, and believe me: driver upgrade has loomed large on my radar screen for a long time. I don't mean to give the impression that I think that shiny bits = better autox times. I have participated in probably a half dozen track events in my life and I walk away from every one shaking my head and knowing that more seat time is the only answer.
But it's the off season, and I'm trying to spend some of that time learning to think clearly about performance issues, which is what prompted this post.
Shiny bits will always be an interesting diversion for car guys, and I do want to buy good shiny bits when I buy them, but please know that I recognize that they don't mean shit without confronting that driver upgrade issue first.
Iain, your point about suspension adjustability leading to trouble is a great point. The Si really is dialed in quite nicely from the factory, so I'll start next season in NGS, with an emphasis on the N, and go from there.
Are there any events between now and February?
S.
No prob - remember, I'm not trying to discourage you, just repeating the advice I was given so long ago, and wish I'd listenend more closely to.
If you want to follow that advice, but still want to dress up your ride a bit, you can always get a nice set of wheels for the street, and keep the stockers for racing. That's what I did on the Miata.
Of course, with the RX-8 my priorities are a little skewed. The ultralight and not-so-cheap wheels sit locked in the garage, while the curb rashed OEMs are my daily driver wheels.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
S.
You say that like it's a bad thing!Of course, with the RX-8 my priorities are a little skewed. The ultralight and not-so-cheap wheels sit locked in the garage, while the curb rashed OEMs are my daily driver wheels.
Sorry Sparky you can only post pictures of stuff you own, not stuff you once owned.
But nice try!
Sorry Sparky you can only post pictures of stuff you own, not stuff you once owned.
But nice try!
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