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Thread: A proposal on improving AX.

  1. #1

    Default A proposal on improving AX.

    Ok boys and girls, this might seem a bit odd because I've only done 2 AX events in my lifetime, but I've read the recent posts on the topic and I'd like to throw my hat in the ring.

    1) I did the most recent SCCA event at Pennington Field (#6?). That was my second AX. My first was almost 25 years ago with ER or something similar to them (at Northpark Mall, believe it or not.)

    The first thing that amazed me was that the two events were operated the same way. 25 years of progress and the AX industry has gone nowhere. Oh, they keep their manually entered data on a computer now instead of a clip-board, but that's hardly modernization. Manual data entry is manual data entry regardless of its level of electrification.

    The second thing that amazed me was that the entry fees haven't kept up with inflation. If they had, then it would have been $1.50 to enter back in the day.

    2) I've told some of you my race creds, but for the record, here it is again. I raced motorcycles for 18 years. I'm a 3 time regional roadrace champ. I'm an ex-race director for WERA. I'm a current race school instructor. I mention these only so that you can understand that I really do know something about club level racing from the local, regional, and national viewpoints.

    3) A bit of perspective. The Central Motorcycle Roadrace Association (CMRA) is the local (TX, OK, LA, AR, KS) racing organization. They have been affiliated with several national sanctioning bodies, but they have recently gone out on their own as an independent, self supporting organization based on their strengths and abilities. They are highly successful and have retained all of the corporate support they previously had with the larger sanctioning bodies.

    I will base my proposal on my personal experience with the CMRA and their prior sanctioning bodies.

    5) Yes, that was a long prolog, but here's the meat of the topic.

    The CMRA puts 500+ entries onto an open track over a period of 6 hours. Each race consists of 8 laps plus one warmup lap, one cool down lap, and gridding. Basically, each race lasts ~15-18 minutes.

    Barring unforseen situations, such as an accident that requires shutdown of the track, medevac, or an exploded motor that oils the surface, CMRA events run on time every time.

    CMRA does not have "trailer troubles". The "computer guy" is completely responsible for the computer system. He has a backup unit and in 8 years of racing in this region, I've seen problems with obtaining results exactly once.

    CMRA uses electronic transponders for lap timing to .001 sec. Yes, the system is expensive. Yes, the racers have to buy and maintain their own transponder. Each transponder is linked to an individual racer.

    CMRA racers do not have to perform a work assignment except as a condition of their provisional licensing. The CMRA pays corner workers an insanely small amount ($25 plus lunch plus "the best seat in the house") for a full day of picking up crashed motorcycles and dealing with injured riders. They work one hell of a lot harder than your average SCCA cone drone, and they do it eagerly. Read the policy here:
    http://tinyurl.com/6runm

    And how does the CMRA do it all? With money.

    If I'm racing, I still have to pay the gate fee to enter the facility. What a concept! An entry fee to make the event appear more interesting while simultaneously providing spectator control and generating revenue!

    If I'm racing in 4 events, my total for the day will be a whopping $170 plus my gate fee of $10 for the day. Yup, that's $180 plus the $400 in tires I'll destroy during the day...... but what does it buy me?

    Sunday morning practice - 3 sessions of 20 minutes each. That's 1 hour of live track time.

    Four 15 minute events. That's another hour of live track time.

    Kids, that's two full hours of "oh my!" time in a single day. It's not a bad price when you consider that my most recent SCCA event cost me about $2.50 per minute and a half day standing in the sun while I waited for my "opportunity" to be a cone drone.

    A price per minute comparison gives me $2.50 for the SCCA and $1.50 for the CMRA.

    For what it's worth, the CMRA is very successful and nobody complains about a lack of track time or too much downtime. And when you're done, you can pack up and go home.

    OK, so what am I proposing?

    1) Raise the entry fee $5. With 200 entries, the $1000 raised can be used to pay corner workers and buy infrastructure. If we paid the corner workers $50 per day, we could have 100 corner workers and still have 1/2 our money. Add the fact that racers wouldn't have to work Mafia deals with their "connection" or wait around all day to complete a work assignment and it sounds like a winning plan to me. (Can't afford $5? Should you be racing?)

    In metro areas, there should be no problem getting corner workers. The CMRA does it even though their races are held in the boondocks.

    2) Use the increased revenue to purchase a lap-timing transponder system like real racers use. Rent the transponders to novices. Let regular racers buy their own if they want.

    3) Invest in some infrastructure such as the trailer. I have two computers sitting unused here in the house that are probably better than the stuff I saw in there. Certainly one of our other members has access to free equipment too. Besides, what's a good CPU cost nowdays? $500? Does the trailer have a network and a client/server architecture? Why not?

    4) Assign ONE PERSON to deal with corner workers. It will be his job to get water out to them, pick them up for lunch, and redistribute them before the afternoon session. They are HIS.

    5) Assign ONE PERSON to deal with Novices. Hand each novice a single page sheet that explains how the day will go, from soup to nuts. Deal with them as if you'd like to see them return.

    6) Restrict facility access to racers, crew, and spectators who have paid and signed the release.

    7) Charge everyone $5 bucks a head to enter - period - unless you're a worker bee. Can't afford it? Don't bring the whole posse.

    Again. These are proposals, not a rant. They're ideas that have been used successfully by other organizations.

    Feedback please....
    Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.

  2. #2
    Obnoxious at any speed altiain's Avatar
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    Feedback? You've got a lot of good suggestions there. Unfortunately, as much as I think that a lot of what you typed makes sense, I also recognize that most of it is waaaaay too radical for Texas Region to adopt.

    Don't get me wrong - I think you've got some really good suggestions. But the stuff oyu suggested will never happen at the Regional level in SCCA Solo, because that's not how it's done at the higher levels. I'm not suggesting that it isn't how it should be - just that change of that magnitude would have to start at the National level and trickle down through the SCCA.

    That's not to say that it wouldn't be a bad idea if someone were to start an alternate autocrossing series...
    Iain

    "We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw

  3. #3

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    I guess the hard parts would be where and insurance...

    Computer gear isn't hard... Timing rig shouldn't be that hard to build either... break a beam of light... and that would work until you get the more expensive transponder system.

    A good supply of cones would cost a few bux - probably more than a cheap PIII system (which would run about 80 to 100 bux for a good used one WITH a printer - First Saturday anyone?)

    I'm sure someone will have a trailer that can be borrowed

    RJ
    Daily Driver: 2013 Club edition in Pearl White Mica

    Lightness? What's that? I drive a PRHT!

  4. #4

    Default Re: A proposal on improving AX.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "If we paid the corner workers $50 per day, we could have 100 corner workers..."
    I haven't gotten through your entire post (and I will... it's good stuff!), but the finance guy side of me just has to respond... 50 x 100 = $5,000, not the $500 your are suggesting. That extra $1,000 would only get you 20 workers at $50 per person, and would use up all that $1,000. Still, your point is a good one. Continuing to read...

  5. #5

    Default Re: A proposal on improving AX.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "Does the trailer have a network and a client/server architecture? Why not?"
    Why does it need one? What benefit is there to having an "in-trailer network"... networking to what? Sounds like over engineering for what you need at an autocross...

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "4) Assign ONE PERSON to deal with corner workers. It will be his job to get water out to them, pick them up for lunch, and redistribute them before the afternoon session. They are HIS."
    Awesome idea. It's called a Worker Chief, and we've already got them. OK, they don't run water out to the corners (the workers can take there own) or pick them up for lunch, but the Worker Chief is in charge of the workers. I'd like to see the Worker Chief lean on the workers a little harder -- make sure they are actually doing their job -- but we really already have this covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "5) Assign ONE PERSON to deal with Novices. Hand each novice a single page sheet that explains how the day will go, from soup to nuts. Deal with them as if you'd like to see them return."
    This is a great idea, and should be implemented by both the SCCA and ER (I'll add that to my list of changes that I'll propose in ER). But I think this individual's job should be larger than simply handing out a sheet of paper. They should actively seek new folks and directly help them. They should strongly encourage them to ride with an experienced driver, and find that experienced driver for them. They should handle the Novice Walk-Through, and make sure they understand how to work the course. Great idea OUTRACE!

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "6) Restrict facility access to racers, crew, and spectators who have paid and signed the release.

    7) Charge everyone $5 bucks a head to enter...
    "
    Hummmm... not sure I agree with charging everyone. Autocross is grassroots motorsports, and leaving it easy/cheap to watch means that we reach more people. I kinda like the casualness of AX, and wouldn't want to keep people away for the sake of a few bucks. But that's just my view...

  6. #6

    Default Re: A proposal on improving AX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "Does the trailer have a network and a client/server architecture? Why not?"
    Why does it need one? What benefit is there to having an "in-trailer network"... networking to what? Sounds like over engineering for what you need at an autocross...

    A networked/client-server structure would allow all of the computers to run all of the applications (whatever they are), with all of the data being common simultaneously. No need to switch chairs to switch jobs, and the architecture will also allow registration to be computerized with instantaneous updates to all stations. This architecture will only cost about $100.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "4) Assign ONE PERSON to deal with corner workers. It will be his job to get water out to them, pick them up for lunch, and redistribute them before the afternoon session. They are HIS."
    Awesome idea. It's called a Worker Chief, and we've already got them. OK, they don't run water out to the corners (the workers can take there own) or pick them up for lunch, but the Worker Chief is in charge of the workers. I'd like to see the Worker Chief lean on the workers a little harder -- make sure they are actually doing their job -- but we really already have this covered.

    What is the value of the current worker chief's assignment if he currently has no contact with the novices. Under a paid system, the worker chief's job gets easier. I don't believe that the worker chief can be a competitor and be completely effective at his assigment.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "5) Assign ONE PERSON to deal with Novices. Hand each novice a single page sheet that explains how the day will go, from soup to nuts. Deal with them as if you'd like to see them return."
    This is a great idea, and should be implemented by both the SCCA and ER (I'll add that to my list of changes that I'll propose in ER). But I think this individual's job should be larger than simply handing out a sheet of paper. They should actively seek new folks and directly help them. They should strongly encourage them to ride with an experienced driver, and find that experienced driver for them. They should handle the Novice Walk-Through, and make sure they understand how to work the course. Great idea OUTRACE!

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "6) Restrict facility access to racers, crew, and spectators who have paid and signed the release.

    7) Charge everyone $5 bucks a head to enter...
    "
    Hummmm... not sure I agree with charging everyone. Autocross is grassroots motorsports, and leaving it easy/cheap to watch means that we reach more people. I kinda like the casualness of AX, and wouldn't want to keep people away for the sake of a few bucks. But that's just my view...

    Charging spectators is always a sensitive issue with club level racing. However, even if there isn't a charge, spectator access should still be controlled and they should be required to sign the release. I realize it happens seldom, but there is a danger that a serious mechanical failure could spectator lives in danger.
    Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A proposal on improving AX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "If we paid the corner workers $50 per day, we could have 100 corner workers..."
    I haven't gotten through your entire post (and I will... it's good stuff!), but the finance guy side of me just has to respond... 50 x 100 = $5,000, not the $500 your are suggesting. That extra $1,000 would only get you 20 workers at $50 per person, and would use up all that $1,000. Still, your point is a good one. Continuing to read...
    Brain fart..... factors of ten...... wanna see my 16 liter Miata?
    Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A proposal on improving AX.

    Quote Originally Posted by OUTRACE
    "However, even if there isn't a charge, spectator access should still be controlled and they should be required to sign the release. I realize it happens seldom, but there is a danger that a serious mechanical failure could spectator lives in danger."
    Everyone on site is required to sign a waiver -- participant or spectator. There are even work assignments at each SCCA event who's specific duty is to seek out and find new worlds, and new civiliations... ooops, I went into Star Trek mode . Who's specific job is to go around and find folks who haven't singed the waiver and get them to do so. Spectator (including participants who are not driving in a given heat) access to the course is also restricted, and this is usually mentioned at the Driver's Meeting.

    As for the computer / network thing, they run the entire event with one computer. It is connected to the timing lights, display panel, and printer through various I/O ports, but there doesn't appear to be any need for a network, since there is only one computer in the Trailer. AX is pretty low-tech... Now, if we get transponders and flux capacitors, that will be a different story. :)

  9. #9

    Default

    I think you're missing the point.

    We have 2 people on registration, 4 people in the trailer, and one Worker chief.

    Only one computer? Why? What do the rest of the people do?

    Why are entries put onto a website so they can be printed out onto paper so that people can make notes on the paper and then put the data back into a computer? (That's a deliberate run-on sentence.)

    I hate to use this old chestnut, but I'm looking for a paradigm shift into the 21st century and it's not going to require a flux capacitor.

    Which class does the DeLorean fit in, anyway? (And how are you going to look it up?)
    Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.

  10. #10

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    Ok... so you're thinking a couple of computers at registration, linked to the Timing & Scoring computer... I can buy that. And a laptop for the Worker Chief that picks up registration information, prepopulates the assignments for the annual pre-paids, and then gives a list of other folks that will need assignments. A nice wireless network in (and around) the Trailer might facilitate that. Yep, maybe we could do that. Pretty high tech , and it could speed things up if everything worked properly.

    Or you could just register people on little index cards, type them into the computer while everyone is getting teched and walking the course, and have a sheet of paper for the worker assignments. Low tech, costs next to nothing, and doesn't require much "training"... no wait... that's what we do now...

    Just giving you a hard time. I'd definitely be in favor of computers at registration. The Worker Chief computer seems a little over-the-top, but the registration thing would be very useful, and should speed things up considerably. I like that idea. Where else would you see additional computers/technology helping out?

    BTW, the Delorean -- without the flux capacitor -- would be in BSP.

  11. #11

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    Heck you could do a wireless network, and have a redundant system available! As folks check in they are added to timing and scoring! Or if one computer starts to act up, you switch to the other one! I like it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel
    BTW, the Delorean -- without the flux capacitor -- would be in BSP.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel
    Ok... so you're thinking a couple of computers at registration, linked to the Timing & Scoring computer... I can buy that.
    Yay! A volunteer to buy computers!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel
    A nice wireless network in (and around) the Trailer might facilitate that. Yep, maybe we could do that.
    And volunteering to hook up a wireless network too!

    What a guy!
    Daily Driver: 2013 Club edition in Pearl White Mica

    Lightness? What's that? I drive a PRHT!

  13. #13

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    Great DeLorean pic.... Looks like there was an actor behind the wheel.

    I think it'd be great to have additional computers doing the following:

    1) How about one where you can mouse in your car and mods..... just like they do at WalMart auto dept. for batteries.... except in this case it could puke your car class. No more silly questions.

    2) How about 4 computers at registration so you can do any part of the alphabet in parallel. Racers could actually enter themselves without further human intervention. You'd only need one person there to collect money.

    3) How about a PC and monitor in the pits that displays current standings, current racer, and current racer's time?

    4) How about another one in the pits that lets you enter your name and it will puke your times onto a cash register slip?

    These are all just ideas folks. Certainly some of them are going to require some programming and some hardware, but they're something we can aim for.
    Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.

  14. #14

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    On a serious note...

    If they are serious about doing these things I have an old 802.11b access point that I'd throw that way... I just don't want it to end up in someone's house for free, but rather I want it to actually be used on race weekends.

    RJ
    Daily Driver: 2013 Club edition in Pearl White Mica

    Lightness? What's that? I drive a PRHT!

  15. #15
    Obnoxious at any speed altiain's Avatar
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    You have all made some wonderful suggestions. Now here's one from me - come out to the next Solo2 Region meeting October 6th in Grapevine. There appear to be a lot of people fed up with the status quo - the more voices asking for change and suggesting how useful changes can be made, the better.
    Iain

    "We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw

  16. #16

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    Thanks for the invitation, but I'll be teaching school in California that week. Feel free to take my ideas and call them your own if you want.

    I have a couple of computers and some network accessories I'll contribute.
    Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.

  17. #17

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    A couple of comments.

    First I appreciate folks thinking of ways to improve the events. More voices for getting things to run better the better.

    One thing that must be remembered is system robustness. I have thought quite a bit about how to automate the worker chief stuff. (I spent several years as worker chief with Spokes down in Austin, and this year as asst. WC (assistant worker chief not water closet :P ) There are two issues with automating (both are surmountable)
    1) Getting good info on who is qualified to do what.
    2) What happens if someone crashes the system end the end of registration and the work assignments are lost.

    John

  18. #18

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    oh and also
    There is already a network set up in the trailer for the announcng station. the two computers (when they are running right) can be used for entering registrations. The online preregistration list is downloaded in a format readable by Axware.

    John

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by altiain
    "You have all made some wonderful suggestions. Now here's one from me - come out to the next Solo2 Region meeting October 6th in Grapevine."
    Absolutely -- I couldn't agree with you more!

    I've been to an SCCA BoD Meeting. It was interesting, but somewhat... painful? Too bad. If you want to affect change, you need to roll up your sleeves and get in there. altiain, tailchaser, and onething (of the MME Miata Pilots) are doing that now as members of the SCCA BoD, and POS Racing has been going to the meetings pretty regularly too. The SCCA BoD needs help, not [just] complaining. And you have to stick to it, through adversity and battles -- change does not come easily! And change does not happen at all without passion, dedication, and a lot of hard (and sometimes disappointing/frustrating) work.

    Having said that, I have chosen to focus on Equipe Rapide. I'm on the Board there, and want to help them with their challenges (although I feel their events are a little smoother than SCCA, they aren't perfect either). Trailer Training (Computer, Control, Timing) is very high on my list of proposals that I'm going to work on -- perhaps joint training between ER and the SCCA would be appropriate, since everyone would benefit from better Trailer workers. But I only have time to "rattle my sword" in one group , so I'll leave the SCCA work to others.

  20. #20

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    Actually I think I've only been to two SCCA meetings. The last one I went to at a steak joint in Grapevine was so loud I couldn't hear 90% of what was said. Haven't gone to any since.

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