Forced Induction Options

I've been researching Super and Turbochargers for my Miata. So far I have my options narrowed down to the Jackson Racing M45 Supercharger, Flyin Miata Base Voodoo system, and the Greddy Turbo kit.

So far for bang for the buck I'm leaning towards the JR Supercharger system.

It's about 2400 dollars and includes their own piggy back computer. Looks about as bolt on as any of the kits I've posted about get.

Next would be the Flyin Miata as it also comes with it's own piggy back system. But the cost is almost 3 grand ::BaHump::

The Greddy system is at the bottom even though the cost is the best simply becuase as far as I can tell it comes with no way to reprogram or piggy back the stock computer. Unless someone has more info for me on that one anyway.

If anyone has any other kits or ideas that they know about let me know I'm all ears. I got used to having forced induction in my Saturn and now am spoiled lol:burnrubr:

Have you found Track Dog Racing yet?

Gary is our Local Hero who is the nationwide king of Supercharger systems!

http://www.trackdogracing.com/websit.../masthead3.jpg

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Have you found Track Dog Racing yet?

Gary is our Local crack dealer who is the nationwide king of Supercharger systems!

http://www.trackdogracing.com/websit.../masthead3.jpg

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Fixed it for you. ;)


I have a JR M45 kit along with a ton of add-ons from Track Dog and Flyin Miata. I am happy with it.

IF you want to go Turbo, I would scratch the Greddy off the list and take a look at the BEGI offerings instead.

After you break your stock '92 diff, you'll probably want to look into a '94-97 Torsen swap... ;)

:D

Hey breakage is natures way of forcing you to upgrade :P

I may be hitting TDR up in the near future for some consultation :D

I would recommend you call Track Dog Racing, then call Flyin' Miata. TDR will be very informative about the supercharger route you are considering. Once you've digested that, call FM. They can tell you what you need to know about turbos and they also have experience with superchargers. Don't even consider the Greddy. It's a poor starting point. It's cheap but many Greddy owners end up replacing or upgrading almost everything in the kit to get to an acceptable system. Just start with a good system to begin with. The choice between the two paths (super v. turbo) is almost like religions - people tend to endorse the one they chose for themselves. However, in TDR and FM you've got two suppliers that have great reputations for fantastic customer service and honesty. Good luck and have fun.




p.s. go turbo :D

FM doesn't have a 90-93 supercharger system.

I'm kinda partial to Superchargers cause my Redline has a factory M62 supercharger.

But I know that turbos have more power potential. Though I think the 140ish or so HP that the SCs put out would make this car just the right amount of fun for me.

Look forward to quite a few varying responses on this.

What's your budget?
What's your priority? Cheap, AutoX, Track, DD (with another car as backup or vice versa) or drag?

I personally like both turbo's and superchargers, though I haven't gotten to hoon on a Supercharger at the track.

Price: It's hard to beat the intro price of turbochargers.
BEGI 1.6 Shanghai-S Turbo kit:
http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...roducts_id=396
$1,305

Reliability:
Both turbochargers and superchargers have been known to fail. Superchargers need belts to be changed, but turbos can have bolt loosening issues under hard track abuse. It's dead even in my opinion.

Power:
A M62 kit can get you 200-250 WHP and so can a turbo system, more money equals more power for both.
Torques not an issue on well thought out turbo systems:
http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t21576/#post274013
http://img29.picoodle.com/img/img29/...1m_13bd735.gif
http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/...2m_6dbc698.gif

Driveability:
An appropriately sized turbo with a free flowing exhaust and stand alone does not have lag issues. I'm sure you're aware how fun a M62 is on the Saturn.

Customer Support:
Living in DFW, you can't beat having TDR in the area. BEGI and FM aren't slouches themselves, but having someone local is nice.


My advice: Stay away from the greddy unless you get one used (there's one for $500 on MiataTurbo classifieds right now). Any of the starter kits are a better starting point, I only have the turbo and manifold still being used from my kit (which was bought used).

Drive or get rides in some Forced Induction cars. A ride in Trackdog, in particular, can be very persuasive. :drive:

Consider a Megasquirt if you go Stand alone.

If you're DIYing everything and doing it on the cheap, it's hard to beat the turbo route.

Chris

miataturbo.net and get ready to read a lot of bs.
Don't buy a FM kit, they suck.
tdr MP62 is good for more then 300whp but you will need a built motor and ecu for all that. good for 220whp on a 99 bolt on. (~200whp on my pos vvt 02)
if you go turbo look at bell kits or a dys.

end of day talk to Gary @ tdr for supercharger info talk to Mr. Brg for everything turbo info. johnwags is good with both but works for tdr

Shanghai-S 1.6L

Color : Black Powdercoating
- Material : Mild Steel
- Wideband O2 Bung : Wideband O2 Bung +$20.00
- Cruise Control : no
- Turbo Size : T25 / T28
- Intercooler Size : none
- Fueling Option : MegaSquirt PNP +$579.00
- Heat Shield : none
- Add Bypass Valve : none
- Add Oil Pan Drill and Tap : yes +$19.50
- Add Stainless Braid Coolant line : yes +$159.00
- Add Separated Gases Downpipe : No
- Ceramic Coating-Turbine Housing : None
- Ceramic Coating-Manifold : None
- Add Stainless Oil Drain Line : Yes +$35.00
- Add Gauge Mount : No
- Add Boost Gauge : No

Total: $2,117.50

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What's your budget?
What's your priority? Cheap, AutoX, Track, DD (with another car as backup or vice versa) or drag?

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2000-2500 dollar budget to get the car completely setup with a Forced Induction setup.

Priority is cost first, the car will be used for Autox and probably driven to work a few times a week. I'll have my Saturn as a backup car as this Miata is primarily going to be a "fun" car. It's a project car basically. I also have my motorcycle so I have no problems having the car down for days at a time if need be.

That Shenghi kit looks like a deal.

Holy Crap BEGi charges 100 dollars for shipping on their turbo systems :(

I have a turbo car. Its way over-the-top but I went into it thinking I could either build a miata, or buy an STI.

If you don't really know what's going on and don't want to work on the car incessantly, get a blower from TDR. I know of no person who owns one of his kits who has reliability issues, and most of these cars see countless hours at the track.

The problem with your blower-situation is the 1.6 and there aren't a bunch of offerings in the supercharger realm.

Rules to live by:
an mp45 on a 1.6 is slow
FM kits don't suck
TDR is basically the only FI company that will sell you a product that you can take on the track with no other modifications
you want MSpnp
Its going to totally change the car and it will be worth every cent when you go FI. I spent way too much on my car and I'd do it all over again.
TDR is the one of the very few respectable non-dealer shops left in this nation.

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Originally Posted by jeepinbanditrider

That Shenghi kit looks like a deal.

Holy Crap BEGi charges 100 dollars for shipping on their turbo systems :(

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It is.

You'll understand why shipping is so high when you get it. If you plan on ever getting your car on the track, and you drive like a man, I suggest you get a tubular manifold until I discover a fix for loosening turbo hardware.

Go visit with TDR or go for a ride.

I enjoy wrenching on cars very much. From what I've discovered over the last few days It's a toss up between the BEGi system and taking a trip over to TDR for a SC setup.

The BEGi is very appealing to me because of the cost.

But I really like being able to get with a real person and talk to them about it and TDR seems to have a great rep.

the begi kit is cheap, but I would not waste any time with rubber lines because they will fail, head shielding is required for the turbo, and you'll probably require an oil cooler in the summer. I'm not saying one is better than the other, you'll just need a few more things than what they provide in the base kit.

When I built my motor up, I spent as much money on supporting items as I did the turbo "kit". Its just the nature of the beast when you track a high-hp turbo car.

Budget money for an MSpnp because it would be foolish to run anything else (TDR may sell them soon I hear).

I hear that. But a the same time I'm not looking to get huge power out of the engine. Another 40-60 HP and I think I'd be a happy camper.

Oil cooler is something I would add for sure.

jeepinbanditrider,
Thanks for starting this post. I am in the same place as you are. However, I have a spec miata and I am looking to force induce it. I know that I am within the total limits of the car and my driving skills while driving my spec. On MSR's 1.7 CCW, I am running consistently low 1:26s with a 1:25 every now and then. I am not for sure what is the fastest times for an SM. I know that is not 1st place numbers, however, since I am not racing the car and only instructing DEs, I am happy with that progress until I get Keith or Team MER spec school to help. I am in the same camp as the OP; I do not want 200 hp at the rear wheel. I only want an additional 40-60 hp at the rear wheel. It seems there is no over arching opinion of Super vs. Turbo. I have two questions, with jeepinbanditrider's permission to add: 1) Which FI system can I hammer at the track and have NO, I mean NO, overheating issue (I only use the car for track!!!)? or is that an unreasonable request? and 2) With only a 40-60 hp gain, would I need to upgrade brakes to the sport or a BBK?


Alan

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Originally Posted by jeepinbanditrider

I hear that. But a the same time I'm not looking to get huge power out of the engine. Another 40-60 HP and I think I'd be a happy camper.

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Very few people who start down the boosted path are ever truly happy with just another 40-60 HP. If it were me I'd make sure I bought a kit that either way exceeded my current horsepower goals (knowing that over time I'll want more) or a kit that offers a proven upgrade path.

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Originally Posted by mr brg

the begi kit is cheap, but I would not waste any time with rubber lines because they will fail, head shielding is required for the turbo, and you'll probably require an oil cooler in the summer. I'm not saying one is better than the other, you'll just need a few more things than what they provide in the base kit.

When I built my motor up, I spent as much money on supporting items as I did the turbo "kit". Its just the nature of the beast when you track a high-hp turbo car.

Budget money for an MSpnp because it would be foolish to run anything else (TDR may sell them soon I hear).

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+1

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Originally Posted by jeepinbanditrider

2000-2500 dollar budget to get the car completely setup with a Forced Induction setup.

Priority is cost first, the car will be used for Autox and probably driven to work a few times a week. I'll have my Saturn as a backup car as this Miata is primarily going to be a "fun" car. It's a project car basically. I also have my motorcycle so I have no problems having the car down for days at a time if need be.

That Shenghi kit looks like a deal.

Holy Crap BEGi charges 100 dollars for shipping on their turbo systems :(

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It's a pretty scenic drive if you have the time and inclination. It's only about an hour from South Austin, but I'd recommend going around Austin one of the ways for the scenery.

Plus you'll get the benefit of seeing how it should fit together and ask as many questions as you'd like.

On the Shanghai kit, the must have options are the braided coolant/oil lines (even though I don't know why the coolant lines are that expensive).

If you go Megasquirt, get that running before you put the turbo on.

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Originally Posted by smartmx5

jeepinbanditrider,
Thanks for starting this post. I am in the same place as you are. However, I have a spec miata and I am looking to force induce it. I know that I am within the total limits of the car and my driving skills while driving my spec. On MSR's 1.7 CCW, I am running consistently low 1:26s with a 1:25 every now and then. I am not for sure what is the fastest times for an SM. I know that is not 1st place numbers, however, since I am not racing the car and only instructing DEs, I am happy with that progress until I get Keith or Team MER spec school to help. I am in the same camp as the OP; I do not want 200 hp at the rear wheel. I only want an additional 40-60 hp at the rear wheel. It seems there is no over arching opinion of Super vs. Turbo. I have two questions, with jeepinbanditrider's permission to add: 1) Which FI system can I hammer at the track and have NO, I mean NO, overheating issue (I only use the car for track!!!)? or is that an unreasonable request? and 2) With only a 40-60 hp gain, would I need to upgrade brakes to the sport or a BBK?


Alan

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1) With a proper setup, you should be able to run either system with no overheating issues. On a turbo, that usually consists of a bigger radiator and a Coolant Reroute (http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...roducts_id=300). I'm having cooling issues that I believe to be systems-related (shouldn't be overheating with my current setup). If I can't track down why I'm having the issues I might just end up running EVAN water-less cooling.

2) Are you running 1.8 brakes? If so, I'd suggest running some brake ducting first and see if you have any problems. You can also upgrade to 11 inch corrado rotors (and keep the 1.8 brake pads) for a nice inexpensive upgrade.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smartmx5

I am in the same camp as the OP; I do not want 200 hp at the rear wheel. I only want an additional 40-60 hp at the rear wheel. It seems there is no over arching opinion of Super vs. Turbo. I have two questions, with jeepinbanditrider's permission to add: 1) Which FI system can I hammer at the track and have NO, I mean NO, overheating issue (I only use the car for track!!!)? or is that an unreasonable request? and 2) With only a 40-60 hp gain, would I need to upgrade brakes to the sport or a BBK?


Alan

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Yeah...drive a car with 250whp from a dynodynamics and you'll totally disagree.

As for driving anything the way a racecar should be driven, you'll need a bigger radiator with some shrouding on the front and an oil cooler with ducting. I suspect a vented hood will help your cause too. I didn't need to flip on my fans until it hit 90* ambient on the track with a standard hood and ghetto ducting on the front.

I can't speak first hand on supercharged cars because I don't own one, but it looks like you can run any TDR kit and endure no mechanical issues. I have a BEGi S3 kit at roughly 300whp/290wtq and my only issue is keeping hardware tight in my cast-log manifold. I wish I had gone v-bands on everything or at least a verticle mount tubular manifold. I've also only done 1 track event so the jury is still out.

At 250whp and less you will be fine on the standard 1.8 brakes with good pads but I recommend brake ducting. I was entering little bend and rattle snake at 120mph+ all day or so without brake ducting and never had fade, but the pads saw too much heat with sport brakes, and my car is around 2300lb.