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My son's needing some P.A. Equipment for his high school rock band. So I'm looking for some input on brands, models and the such. I'm looking to spend about $1200 to $1500 for the whole thing. Equipment we're thinking we need is:
Two Speakers aprox 800 watt
One or two Monitors, not sure on the wattage
5 microphones, one for each singer and one for the drummer
Mixer with aprox 8-10 mike inputs
Amp with at least 650 watts, possible mixer/amp combo? Are those worth doing?
Thanks in advance.
Duane
My brother has dealings with a few pro audion installation companies. Ill see if I can talk to him, ill let you know...
Duane:Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboDuane
Ok, first some thoughts...
Most starting bands want everyone to have a microphone. I was the same way. You see a lot of bands (especially jam bands) doing it, and you want to emulate it. The reality of the situation is that running sound for a small band is a major PITA. Every mic you add to the stage is going to increase your chances of feedback and lower the overall level of monitor volume you're going to be able to run on-stage. The big guys do it with a dedicated monitor console and a TON of very precise EQ work. Better yet, many of them just use in-ears which are either very expensive or very crappy.
Bands need monitors, unless you're playing in a really small place in which case you can sometimes get away without them. While everyone will want a monitor, once you've played a couple of gigs where either a) you only have the cash for a couple monitors, or b) the "stage" area is WAY too small for the band, much less a lot of monitors you discover that the truth is vocalists are the ones that REALLY need them. Guitarists, bassists and drummers may bitch, but they CAN read lips to find cues, and you can always put the bass amp by the drummer so he/she can "monitor" the bass, etc.
Consider, too, whether or not there's going to be someone (knowledgable) available to run sound. Even with someone in the know, you're still going to need a simple system to pull off good sound. With the band running it, well, KISS rules.
As far as mains go, I'd think really hard about what kind of gigs they're going to be playing and what they'll need for THOSE gigs. That'll help that money go a lot farther. If they're going to be playing the Deep Ellum/etc. scene (there are some all-ages shows) they won't need any PA at all. If they're planning to "make their own gigs" at friend's houses or the school, they're not going to need a huge rig, either. (They're not going to want to be that loud... ok, they WILL want to be that loud, but it won't be a good thing.) Though they're going to want to have a big rig -- it does make you "feel" like more of a "real" band, the truth of the matter is that there is very little need for it unless they're playing medium-sized clubs or bars that don't have sound.
Putting the instruments into the PA adds a new dimension to the process. Of course if you have brass/winds or the like, they'll need to be in from the beginning, but micing them can be a trick. Generally the biggest problems with adding guitars to the mix are a) getting them to turn down enough so that you can actually include them in the mix without them being overbearing, and b) having yet another mic on the stage. Micing drums is expensive and virtually unnecessary unless you're playing a big club or outdoors. (My best advice playing outdoors -- don't. You need more gear than God. If you do end up playing outdoors, just pick an area around the band that you want to sound good and make that work. Don't try to play to people 100' away. You'll never do it on any reasonable budget. And don't even get me started about rain...) Add the bass to the mix last as you'll spend a ton of money making all those lows whereas the bassist can pick up a cabinet that'll do the job much cheaper.
Ok, now that I've typed your eyes off blabbering, I'll put it to actual hardware terms:
If it were me, I'd recommend that they keep their "self-made gigs" small and try to plan the "bigger" gigs around venues with sound.
In most small-gig cases (like a house party, show for friends, small bar, restaurant, etc.) your backline (guitar amp/bass amp/drum kit) is going to already make more than enough volume for the gig. The problem will be getting the vocals on top of that. (And getting the band to balance themselves, but that's part of the fun of being in a band...) So, a couple of medium-sized speakers, an amp, and a small mixer does the trick. If you've still got dollars left (which you should, considering your budget), pick up two small monitors and place them in front of the band (if everyone insists on singing) or in front of your primary and backing vocalists (if they come to their senses).
Buying new, you could do something like this:
Carvin 844-1230 - 1000W 8 ch System : $1099 + shipping
Carvin 1232 - 12 inch 300 watt Floor Monitor $179.99 ea (x2)
This gets you a decent little 8-channel mixer (plenty for vocals), a couple of decent mains (look carefully for the free upgrade to the 15's), and an amp that you can use to drive both the mains and monitors. (You can run the mains off one channel and the monitors off the other -- still plenty of power, and you're still only at 4 ohms whereas the amp will take 2. Really, I've done it.) Decent vocal microphones are around $75-$100 (a good 'ole SM58, or if you're into adventure Sennheiser makes the E835 which I think sounds just like the SM58 with less handling noise, but let your ear be the judge). A couple of speaker stands and cases and you're in business with room to grow.
Better yet, you could shop used and get something more like:
eBay - CARVIN DCM2000 2000 WATT POWER AMP: Say $250 (it's at $212 w/4 hrs remaining)
eBay - Mackie 1604-VLZ Pro Mixer Used Good Condition 1604 VLZ: Say $500 (it's at $465 w/2 hrs remaining)
...etc...
Whatever you do, remember that you've got to protect that equipment or it won't last but a few months. If you buy rack equipment (like an amp), buy a rack and install the equipment in it. If you buy a mixer, at least invest in a soft case for it, and better yet get a hard case. Buy a bag for your speaker stands. And DEFINITELY buy a case for your microphones. You drop 'em hard, you might as well have bought a $20 mic, 'cause that's what your $100 mic now sounds like. And if the band is rough -- like they want to swing them around on the cable or such -- just buy the cheap-azz ones from the start.
FWIW, the last band I played in was about a year ago and was a Blues Traveler tribute band called "Popper's Groove." A sample: pg-crashburn.mp3.
For most of our gigs we used a small rig consisting of a couple of Yamaha SPIV 15" mains, a Carvin 1k amp (split like I mentioned above), and a couple of Carvin 12" monitors. We were lucky as our guitarist had a digital amp with a pretty reasonable sounding DI, so no mic there. The harp player ran his own Popper-esque rig with a DI as well. We actually had a sax player, too, so the vox, harp, sax, and guitar went in the mains.
We did a couple of gigs at 8.0 in Fort Worth, which is outdoors and probably the biggest venue in the area you have to actually fill with your own gear. For that we added the bass and drums to the mix (I have a pretty decent collection of mics) and added subwoofers/amps to drive them and two more monitors.
Our biggest gigs were in Wichita Falls (of all places) opening for a Queen tribute band. There, and at most other gigs, the venue provided sound and professionals to run it.
Anyway, that's my $0.02. If you want to talk more about it, PM me. It's much easier to talk than type anyway.
Chuck
He's right on two things:
1. KISS (the band) does rule. *Quote:
Originally Posted by ccage
And 2. Keeping it simple is the best rule of thumb. The hardest part of this whole process is convincing the band ego that they don't need burst the eardrums of the audience/and or themselves through audio overload.
* Now I'll be singing Deuce all day!
Thanks for all the good info, and the time it took you to type it. My son and I have been at odds for what he needs so I'm getting as much advise as possible from experianced musicians, of which I'm not.
No problem.
BTW: I'm really into the idea of kids forming bands, and I think it's great that you're involved in supporting your son in doing so. I played in the band in school, but I didn't get around to playing in a rock band until my mid 20's. It's a truly fun thing to do, and it really contributes to turning music into a lifelong friend.
If you're at odds with him, you might try approaching the subject from the stance of "the music is where your mind should be... Gear just gets it out there. If the music isn't right, gear doesn't matter." Sometimes that flies. In the end most of his enjoyment will come from playing, performing, and (maybe) writing more than gear-heading.
With that in mind, a confession:
I confess to being a 100% gear-head. When I joined my first rock band, we ran the whole band through a little 6-channel Samson mixer into a Peavey M2600 (150w) amp and some big/heavy Peavey mains. We had four mics -- everyone but the drummer -- and the keys and bass (me) were direct (and I mean "direct" as just plugged into the mixer with the trim boosted). Ass doesn't even begin to describe what it sounded like, but we were playing.
Later I got a better job and started picking up equipment. I went through the whole process of getting too big, then eventually learning to suss out the gig and bring only what we really needed. Now I have a storage unit full of gear, but no time to play. Go figure. (Not selling, BTW, but it doesn't matter as you can easily find everything I own used at good deals -- not surprisingly.:) )
Anyway, good job supporting your son's interest in music.
Chuck
Good line!! http://www.dallasimports.net/forums/...lt/biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by ccage
I've found some deals, are any of these worth moving on?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/630119/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/630118/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/631255/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/600612/
These are some of the best prices I've found. I've never heard of Behringer, are they any good?
TD
Not that I really know much about band equipment, but the second one looks like the ticket to me. Teenagers tend to care about brand names, and Yamaha should cover that better then Behringer... More importantly, the second Yamaha looks a lot more rugged then the others. I suspect that will be important with the type of abuse that will likely occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboDuane
I've dealt with Musician's Friend on many occasions and would highly recommend them. They're easy to deal with, ship on time, and pack well.
I've had ok luck with some of Behringer's amazingly-cheap outboard effects units, and at one point I had one of their mixers, but I would strongly recommend avoiding them for anything else -- especially power amps and speakers.
The Yamaha packages look great, though. The difference between the $1399 package and the $1199 package seems to be the mixer. The $200 gets you a 12-channel mixer over the 8, but note that the 12 channel only has XLR inputs (and preamps) on the first 8 channels -- this is common these days -- which means you're only going to be able to handle 8 microphones without some kind of outboard preamps. So not much difference there. The cheaper one is slightly less powerful, but either will drive the speakers that come in the package. (BTW, these speakers are great. I have the earlier S115IV version that I got discounted when the V came out and love them.) You do get 4 aux sends instead of 2 on the more expensive one, which will make the second one more flexible should the band grow.
The mics are junk, but you can't piece the package together cheaper without them (I checked) so, hey, free mics. The Musician's Friend mic cables are cheap-o and will fail relatively quickly, but they're SO cheap that you can just order some extras. In fact, the extras can be handy for when you end up needing a few...
In short, they're both fine. Go with your budget.
There are a few more things you'll need to complete the kit, though:
On-Stage Stands Mic Stand Package - A package deal with 6 mic stands (w/booms) and a carrying bag for $79.99. These are cheapie stands as well and will wear out, but hey, you've got two extras and they can always save up on their own for better ones.
Musician's Friend MB-6 6 Space Mic Bag - For $15 you've got a relatively safe place to carry the mics. Get 'em started early. When they get used to carrying their junk mics rolling around in the bottom of a bag with cables and equipment, they'll do it with the good ones, too. Plus it'd still cost you ~$120 to replace the ones in the kit from Musician's Friend.
On-Stage Stands Stand Bag - $20 gets you a bag for those speaker stands that come in the kit. Otherwise they'll be gouging up every car you own...
And finally:
Musician's Friend Lo-Z Microphone Cable 20' 10-Pack - $20 for 10 20ft mic cables. I told you they were cheap. :) Like I said, they'll break quick, but you can go through 10 of 'em if you need to.
So we're talking about another $135 and you've pretty much got the whole thing. If you choose the more expensive package (with the 12 channel mixer), you might see if you can find an inexpensive mixer bag for it. You could probably find something for $50 or so, and it'd be a wise investment. The cheaper one looks like it'd hold up pretty well on its own.
Remember that neither of these systems includes monitors, but if they start really playing out and are complaining about no monitors, you (or they) could invest in a monitor package later.
Chuck