Clutch is going to floor after bleed attempt

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11-12-2006, 06:18 PM
jrj512

Clutch is going to floor after bleed attempt

After bleeding the brakes today, we decided to bleed the clutch, too. I have been having problems with the clutch slipping or perhaps sticking, and although I did not think bleeding would fix it, I figured why not try.

Well, we pressed the clutch in and I opened the bleeder valve. After that, the clutch never got any feel back after several attempts to bleed it. I was only able to bleed very little fluid. Obviously something broke.

After looking in the Haynes manual, it looked like either the master or slave cylinders were malfunctioning. I also noted that this could also cause the clutch to stick, which I could interprit at slipping, so maybe I do not need a new clutch after all.

I have purchased rebuild kits for both cylinders and will work on them early this week, but in case this does not fix it, please let me know if anyone else has any ideas.

Thanks!
11-12-2006, 06:28 PM
channelmaniac

One thing to watch out for is a clogged orifice down where the bleeder valve seats. The slave cylinder from the spec project had that problem. What sucked was that it wasn't very old either... So when I replaced it this time I flushed new fluid all the way down through.

RJ
11-12-2006, 06:43 PM
wrxmr2eater

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrj512

...
Well, we pressed the clutch in and I opened the bleeder valve. After that, the clutch never got any feel back after several attempts to bleed it.
...

Wouldn't that just then suck in air when you then lifted the clutch pedal? I have always done it by opening the valve only when pushing the clutch in, closing it while it was returing from the floor to its resting point.
11-12-2006, 06:47 PM
tailchaser

Sounds like you killed the clutch master cylinder to me.
11-12-2006, 07:42 PM
POS Racing

From personal experience it's a lot easier to bleed with a Mityvac YMMV!

Think TC has a Speedbleeder on his which would also work pretty slick!
11-12-2006, 07:47 PM
Mark52

Clarify one thing: Did you close the bleeder valve before letting the clutch pedal out? I imagine you did, since you had just bled the brakes. It's looking like a clutch master cylinder rebuild is in order unlsee the slave is leaking its guts out.
11-12-2006, 08:59 PM
jrj512

Yes, I closed the bleeder prior to telling my helper to let off the clutch. I would then tell them to press down again and then I would reopen it. Good question, though, as I verified it with my helper several times. ;)

It turns out that cylinder rebuild kits are cheap, so I have removed, rebuilt, and re-installed the slave. Dirty work, but more or less easy.

I have removed the master and cleaned it. Just have to finish rebuilding it tomorrow, reinstall it, and bleed the system. I hope it fixes the issue. I am guessing that the shock of the bleeding must have been the final straw on a seal in one of the cylinders.

Channelmaniac, the bleeders should be clean now from the rebuild, but if this fails, I will verify they're clean.

Thanks for the help so far. It sounds like I'm on the right track.
11-12-2006, 10:06 PM
channelmaniac

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrj512

Channelmaniac, the bleeders should be clean now from the rebuild, but if this fails, I will verify they're clean.

It wasn't the hole in the bleeders that clogged. It was the hole in the slave cylinder at the bottom where the bleeder seats in. You'll want to make sure it's clean & clear.

RJ
11-13-2006, 09:54 PM
jrj512

Okay, now that I am sitting down to a Jim Beam (two ice cubes), I can fill you in on the rest.

I finished rebuilding the cylinders today and I was actually able to bleed them whereas I could not yesterday. However, the clutch still did not have any feel! I also noticed that the slave was starting to leak. And most importantly, the piston was not really moving the flange coming out of the transmission. I took the slave cylinder back off and disassembled it. Looking at it, I realized that the diagram in the Haynes manual might be wrong -- the piston was positioned backwards!

Once I put the piston in the other way, the slave cylinder started to feel "right". When I reinstalled it, it would put pressure against the flange coming from the transmission. Once we started bleeding it, the clutch gained feeling. The Haynes manual shows the bulbous end to be inside the boot and cylinder, but it is supposed to be the other way around. I have now verified this by looking at pics of the slave on web pages (for example, http://www.autoguide.net/apf/images/...8947616glp.jpg)

Now we are out of fluid, so I am going to buy some more tomorrow and we will finish the job. At least the end is in sight.

Dang ol' Haynes. I can't be too mad, though, as I have written technical docs that have had 'minor flaws' that had people pulling their hair out. It's just part of the game.
11-13-2006, 10:08 PM
Radio-Active

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

From personal experience it's a lot easier to bleed with a Mityvac YMMV!

Think TC has a Speedbleeder on his which would also work pretty slick!

+1

This is the easiest way I have found to bleed brake and cluthch systems.
11-13-2006, 10:25 PM
POS Racing

Get a Mazda service manual and throw away the Haynes manual it will simplify your life. ;)
11-13-2006, 10:28 PM
sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Get a Mazda service manual and throw away the Haynes manual it will simplify your life. ;)

At the very least get an 'Enthusiasts Manual' and use the Haynes as a wheel chock.
11-14-2006, 09:43 PM
jrj512

Well, it's done and road tested. The brakes feel a whole lot better, but the right front still likes to lock up a little early. Dang. I'll have to deal with that yet.

The clutch feels better, but still not as good as Doug's.

We'll see how it goes this weekend. Thanks for giving me some ideas.

Off to buy a Mazda Service Manual...
11-15-2006, 11:52 PM
BAM!

sounds like youre almost done. one thing i do at work is what we call gravity bleeding. just open the bleeder and keep the resevior full. the longer the better. ****do not let the resevior go empty, and dont let anyone step on the pedal**** then you can finish off with a regular bleeding process liek the steps youve done.. ::Flag::
11-16-2006, 12:19 AM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrj512

Well, it's done and road tested. The brakes feel a whole lot better, but the right front still likes to lock up a little early. Dang. I'll have to deal with that yet.

The clutch feels better, but still not as good as Doug's.

We'll see how it goes this weekend. Thanks for giving me some ideas.

Off to buy a Mazda Service Manual...

If you weren't such a skinny bastard, I might suggest using adjustable endlinks on your front swaybar to set some preload... Well... it's probably worth a shot anyway. I've got some endlinks you can rent. :-)
11-16-2006, 09:08 AM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrj512

Well, it's done and road tested. The brakes feel a whole lot better, but the right front still likes to lock up a little early. Dang. I'll have to deal with that yet...

Where have I seen that problem before lets got to the achieves and......
http://www.harrisonindustrial.com/im...e_brakessm.JPG
Kids around here told me to break in straight line. ;)
11-16-2006, 06:28 PM
Mark52

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammm

At the very least get an 'Enthusiasts Manual' and use the Haynes as a wheel chock.

I vote for the Enthusiasts Manual over everything available.
11-16-2006, 06:56 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark52

I vote for the Enthusiasts Manual over everything available.

Quiet You! ::Rant::

;)