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I was provoked by GregW's question. Alright guys, I'm kinda confused on things. I tried researching but I still haven't learned to speak the language of SCCA classing. My head starts spinning.
I have a '94 with a Torsen. I'm thinking about getting bigger wheels. I know that would bump me out of E-stock, and the Torsen excludes me from STS.
So, if I have nothing but 15" wheels and a Torsen, what is the lowest class that bumps me into? STR?
Yes, you would be in STR if you want to run street tires. You would be in CSP if you want to run R-comps. This only applies to SCCA and ER events.
The 15" rims and diff do not matter at BMW, NTAXS, and (I think) PCA events.
You could run TCSP (no R-comps), but the PAX will be brutal. (CSP=.863, ES=.829)
2 Sets of wheels solved my problem.
The 14" are used for SCCA/ER Autocrosses and the 15" wheels run everywhere else. ;-)
Thanks, I'm just curious. It won't matter immediately, but I'm trying to think ahead and avoid buying a bunch of parts I will eventually want to get rid of later on if I can avoid it.
I'm kinda thinking I might just run with BMW and NTAXS and do what I wanna do and not worry about SCCA classing.
All this stems around the fact that I might have an almost unlimited supply of free 15" Star Specs if I want them, so I'm thinking about spending money to upgrade my wheels rather than on tires to fit my stock 14" wheels.
I'm thinking that's what I might end up doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
Or I could get two cars: an autocross car and a track car...
Or three cars, an autocross car and a track car and a daily driver...
Or... oh my, this is getting dangerous.
It is cheap and easy! Like me!Quote:
Originally Posted by cleave
Glad to see at least one of the Noobs actually paying attention to the rule book! ;-)
Do tell! :snack:Quote:
Originally Posted by cleave
He will share I'm sure he is just waiting for the right opportunity to tell us! ::Banana::Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
If you're just doing local events I wouldn't worry so much about the letter of the law when it comes to the rules. Locally no one is going to care if you run E stock or STS.
I'm planning to be in E-Stock next season so not so sure Davidss is correct on his assumption. ::EvilBana
If I have to abide by the rules I would expect my class compedators to do the same. ;-)
That's what everyone says but some will point out your out-of-classness every time you show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
"If I have to abide by the rules I would expect my class compedators to do the same."
+1
If it's something that makes no differance like no airbag in the steering wheel who cares, but running bigger wheels or a car that's been lowered in stock.::Rant::
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
cleave- I you want to come to STS consider this an invitation. I can guarantee none of the current competitors are going to care if you run a stock miata even if it has a torsen and even if you start trophying. And you won't hear crap about it every event. All you have to do is tell people in advance and I'll even go with you if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Sure you could protest some novice for running 15" street tires in E stock. But everyone would know it's a weenie protest and you'll just get laughed at.Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
Unfortunately I guess there are a few classes locally that have a high concentration of weenies (novice, tire class, and E stock come to mind). But outside of those classes as long as you tell your competitors upfront no one will care (at least locally).Quote:
Originally Posted by bnordin
I guess you haven't heard of this rule:Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
While the right to protest in proper cases is undoubted, it should be remembered that Solo events are sporting events, to be conducted in a sporting spirit; that all events are organized and managed by amateurs who cheerfully give their time and do their best, that the competitor may expect some imperfections of the organizers and of his fellow competitors; and that, to a reasonable extent, these things are part of the chances he takes in entering the competition.
It's a very slippery slop when people start picking which rules they want to follow. I would love to get rid of the POS clutch and reflash the ECU in the S2000 but I don't because I don't want to run BSP.
You mean like most of the boost buggies in STU?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Oh man that was too easy.
Okay, look at it this way. A guy running a stock Miata in 14" stock wheels has only two tire choices -- Dunlop and Falken. A guy running non-stock 15" wheels has those choices, plus Hankook, Yokos, Kumho, and most importantly, Toyo. I would say that is a pretty big difference that is far from laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
There is only one choice in E stock if you want to be competitive no matter what wheels you run, Hoosier!Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
This type of conversation is what scares people away form SCCA-classing and the clubs who use it, unfortunately. some folks probably read these arguments (on any forum) and decide not to bother showing-up to any autox ever, for fear that they'll be wasting a trip.
I'd like to think that extremely lax classing would be the norm in novice where it doesn't matter, and people who "stick" will soon understand the classing specifics in the open classes once they've run a few events. If new drivers are routinely steered towards novice, that will probably put them on a good path to learn the details of autox without feeling intimidated by the substantial ruleset.
Since I'm the only one running E stock this year, that high concentration must be 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
Just start calling me "Oscar".::Banana::
Yep that is my point! ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
Davidss for what it is worth that same book also states -Quote:
In order to promote the sport of automotive competition, to achieve prompt finality in competition results, and in consideration of the numerous benefits to them, all participants, including competitors and officials, expressly agree that:
1. They are familiar with the SCCA Solo Rules and agree to abide by them;
LOL! :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by cone-cerned
If you're like me and have no aspirations of becoming a national champ, just jump in an uncompetitive class so you can mod your car as you wish instead of building your car to the book. Sure you will be outgunned in the vehicle prep dept, but the car is fun and you don't have to listen to anyone b!itching about what you've done to your car. When/if I get a chance to race with SCCA or ER I will class my car as SSM even though it is technically a BSP car. I know that eventually I will mod it enough that I'll end up in SSM, so I might as well start in the class that I figure I'll end up in.
When was the last time we had a protest at the local level? But we will talk about you if you cheat.
Either build the car the way you want and put in the class it meets the rules in or pick which class you want to run in then build the car to the class rules.
Or only do BMW and NTAXS Events :D More runs, cheaper, less people, less BS. Ken doing drift-o impressions and funnel cakes! What more can you want?
As much as some people dislike the rules. Without them sooner or later this guy shows up and kills the sport.
Attachment 4715
Wow, I didn't mean to create such a firestorm! I was just asking the 15" wheels & torsen just to make sure I understood where that would place me. There's a lot of other thought going into this whole scenario that I left out just because I didn't want to bore anyone with a bunch of details.
Eventually I plan on more mods to the suspension and want to have a class in mind in case I decide I want to do it on 15" wheels.
First though, I'm probably just going to run a lot of NTAXS and BMWCCA events because they tend to run on Saturdays, which work best with my work schedule. Eventually though I'd like to run in a tighter class structure like ER or SCCA to see where I stack up after my driving has gotten respectable.
So, now I can look at the respective rules and compare E-stock and STR and see which one I'd rather look towards down the road as I plan out future mods. If STR looks like it's more than I'm willing to do, then I'll probably take POS's advice and just get new tires for the stock wheels when I am ready.
Thanks for all the input though!
Well, I'm new to autocrossing, not new to racing or rulebooks. I have a karting background. I could tell you the difference between ICC, ICA, JICA, TaG, Stock Moto, Super Sportsman, Junior Can, Formula Y, etc. etc. etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
But say STS or CSP and I have no idea what you are talking about (yet... I've got the stock classes pretty well figured out so far). I need to cuddle up next to a rule book for some fireside reading one of these nights.
My family runs 15" Star Specs in 24 Hours of Lemons racing and we get new tires while there is still quite a bit of life left in them. Ordering a new set for 2011 and will have 8 of them sitting in the garage.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
All the arguing about the minutiae of the rulebook won't scare me away, so don't worry there. I'm used to it by now. Apparently no racing sanctioning body is immune.Quote:
Originally Posted by OZMDD
But you are right, this could get really confusing and frustrating for people who have never gotten into motorsports for themselves.
Dude, I plan to be national champ next year. :burnrubr:Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDmiata
But seriously, I do like to compete, so I would like to have a car that is at least competitive locally and something where I could measure myself against comparable cars. And I'd like to do it semi-cheaply. Thus my interest in autocross instead of something like time trials at this stage of the game.
Quick question: what tires are you currently running in E stock? And plans for next year? Just wondering if you go all out with the tires or run street tires. As I said above, I just want to compare myself to some other people, so it does no good to me if the tires are apples and oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by cone-cerned
cone-cerned is running R-compounds this year (V710's maybe?)....can't say what he will be running next season. The handful of us that have been running stock 1st gen Miata's in Tire class (TES) the past few seasons are considering running ES next year minus the R-compounds. The 1st gen Miata has become outclassed and out-PAX'ed these days to really remain competitive in the ever growing Street Tire wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by cleave
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleave
I am running Kumho V710's, 225/50-14, on my M Edition polished wheels. I have OTS Koni Sports, a 1" solid front sway bar, an Enthusa cat back exhaust, Hawk ceramic front pads, Hawk HP+ rear pads, a 35 lb trailer hitch and a 45 lb roll bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
I've been running E stock for 4 years, I don't see a change for next year. Tires for next year? I am planning on winning another set of Kumho tires in the tire drawing.
On the rare occasion that I get to run BMW or NTAXS I run 195/55-15 Dunlop Star Specs on OEM Miata 15x6" wheels.
E Stock, try it, you'll like it.
Don't get me wrong, I love to compete, but limited time and an even more limited budget means I won't stand a chance at national level competition. Besides driving a car that is screwed no matter which class I choose, there is still the loose nut behind the wheel. But I like to race and my car makes me happy even if its not the most competitive car to drive. Hopefully you can sort everything out and enjoy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cleave
What Robert said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
The reality is that a newbie is going to be off the pace regardless of what they're driving (case in point: my newbie co-driver was almost thirteen seconds slower than me in the cheater bass boat at the last NTAXS event). So why not just run wherever the car would be legally classed? In most cases they aren't going to be competitive even if they ran in the lower class, and bending the rules because "it doesn't matter at the local level" sets a bad precedent.
But what do I know. I cheat every chance I get. :wink:
They forgot to mention that part in your GRM article.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
Hey guys,
We are all out there to have fun. My advice is to run your car in the proper class for the modifications you have made. Your raw time will be the same no matter what letters are on the door. What if you end up in CSP or DP and get beat convincingly? It is more ammunition for bench racing. If it is a trophy you want then sign up in D-Mod where you will be the only competitor.
We've only had one protest as long as I can remember. The protestee and the protester were both weenies.
Must have been Sammm and POS Racing. Or maybe two Jones brothers.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadtrash