Concerning street tire vs. race tire pax payouts - what does everyone think of having two separate pax classes? I think this would avoid the *problem* of figuring out how to modify the times in an effort to please everyone, which will never happen.
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Concerning street tire vs. race tire pax payouts - what does everyone think of having two separate pax classes? I think this would avoid the *problem* of figuring out how to modify the times in an effort to please everyone, which will never happen.
I think it comes down to the fact that the payout will be smaller. I'm not sure I agree, as the Ladies Rapid Pax always seems to pay well, and they have far fewer entries than a Tire pax would. BTW - why do we have a separate pax for ladies? Are their cars slower?? Not to start a whole separate issue here, but Kim W and Sharon E seem to kick my butt regularly...Quote:
Originally Posted by danzo
Another thing to consider is marketing.
ER owns www.autocross.com, which is perhaps the most envied autocross domain name there is. How come I had to create www.dfwautocross.com in order to get a single listing of all the local autocrosses? That would have been an excellent use of www.autocross.com and generated a lot of traffic for your club's web site.
When was the last time you went to other clubs events to plug your events?
When was the last time that you created a thread for your next event on forums where autocrossers hang out, like here, Lonestar BMW's forum, for the NTS2KOC forum? You could offer to create a special class if they want to come out.
Could be workable but then there would be two distinct "pots" to be divided up: the regular PAX and the Tire PAX. Tire PAX wouldn't have near the amount of competitors so the payouts couldn't be anywhere near as deep I imagine. Remember that the payouts come from the fact the people are paying into that pot when they pay the additional PAX fee at registration.Quote:
Originally Posted by danzo
The idea of PAX has arguable limitations as it is. Adding a seperate Tire class handicap into that somehow would be a farce. Trying to pick an additional handicap for any car running street tires no matter how that car is otherwise classed and lumping it back into the regular PAX can't be done with comparable and meaningful results. If it could be done there would be no need for a Tire class in the first place.
I thought that was the definition of ken o?? ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
Except the problem with that is you will decrease the payouts in the existing PAX structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by danzo
Here's a crazy idea - why not just do away with the Rapide PAX altogether? Just up the "regular" entry fee by $5 and give everyone six runs. Then everyone gets shafted equally. Spend the money saved on donuts or something.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts!!!!!!!!!!
I am a fan of this! I don't think that is a crazy idea at all. Maybe if they did away with Rapid PAX they could actually classes altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
I'll be at the ER event...doing some tuning befor Blythville.
+1 ... I think 6 regular runs would be a huge plus for the club! Spend the extra money on some nice ribbons.Quote:
Originally Posted by S.F. Maxcy
http://www.centurynovelty.com/catIma...-683_large.jpg.
I don't think we have enough people in the tire class for a seprate PAX class. I also don't think we have enough for a seprate lady's class, but that another can of worms that I won't get into. For me adjusting the PAX for cars on street tires is more about giving them a fair chance to place well than getting them into the money, and I think more would come out if they think they have a chance. For it to be fair it has to be enough to give them a fair chance, changing it 1% would make no differance. I do think if you take the PAX and multiply it by .975 you would get a good number.
With the turn out ER has been getting we could do 6 regular runs and 2 pax runs, but we would have to do morning and afternoon runs groups to keep the heats from being to long for the course workers, with a lunch break, unless we get enough for 3 run groups then we would work 1 heat, run 1 heat, and rest in 1 heat. Most of the clubs ER complets aganst for drivers get 8 or more runs.
Funnel cakes would be more effective. ::Banana::Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
But then you are still penalizing those that do not want PAX by having to work eight runs, but only drive six runs. Everybody should drive the same number of trophy runs. If you want in on the PAX money, then you pay extra and your last two (or whatever) runs additionally count towards the PAX results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
I think that would kill the PAX class only the ones that can win money would sign up for it. You would end up with a class of 10 cars, then 5 cars when the slow 5 droped out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
I don't know if that's what would be best for the club but I would hate to see the PAX class go away, I always enjoyed it. I understand what you are saying and you make a good point. I am just not sure whats best for the club.
I never liked the PAX FEE at ER. If I paid it, I always felt like a sucker since I was on street tires. If I didn't, it seemed like I was missing out on the extra runs. And, when I paid, the last two runs were always my fastest, but counted for NOTHING.
I haven't run with ER much the last couple of years, but PAX isn't the reason.
Very curious - what is your main reason for not running ER lately?Quote:
I haven't run with ER much the last couple of years, but PAX isn't the reason.
I haven't examined the results carefully, but having two pots based on whether or not you run r-comps seems more workable than trying to re-pax the pax. That would allow you to run in a stock class on street tires for trophies and still be in the running for pax (theoretically). No modification to the pax would be needed. Also, how about doing-away with the separate ladies rapid pax?
Street Tire Pot
"Tire" Class , Street Touring (ST, STS, STR, STX, STU)
R-comp Pot
Stock classes, SP, SM, FSAE, etc.
I think the Rapid Pax would not be in danger of dying-out so long as peopel feel like they can drive their way into the money. If it does die-out, then that speaks for itself. No matter what else is done, I hope the Rapid Pax becomes a buy-in option for the money only, not to buy extra runs. Every driver shoudl get the same number of runs if they are expected to work them, and they should all count towards the trophies. Let the money be a separate issue. This also eliminates the need for a 2-event registration online, since you'd simply run the results for all drivers' final 2 runs, then only pay-out to those who paid-in.
You might even increase participation in RP if people realize they would have won money had the bought-in, but didn't.
I'm curoius too. You can e-mail me at [email protected] if you don't want to spread discontent in public.Quote:
I haven't run with ER much the last couple of years, but PAX isn't the reason.
I was going to advertise here on Monday but Jarrett beat me to the punch. I'll have to send him a fruit basket or something.Quote:
When was the last time you went to other clubs events to plug your events?
Ozmdd
The PAX for street touring classes is done for cars already on street tires so it is close to right. (as close as PAX gets). So the street tire pax class would be for cars in stock, SP, SM, M, and P running on street tires. No reason to break out the street touring classees from the R-Comp cars.
No fruit. Sweet breads. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadtrash
60 posts and we haven't even had the event, or even determined where we will have breakfast.
Classic Donuts in Krum. Meet me there at 4:30 Sunday morning and I'll buy you as many donuts as you can eat.
You have no idea how many donuts one can eat when they become free. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadtrash
How about the TIME for this meeting?Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadtrash
Eat circa 6:30, biznatch circa 7. Really appreciate the interest, unfortunately I can't make it due to circumstances beyond my control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danzo
Nothing against ER. I'm involved with SCCA and NTXAS. SCCA for the competition and NTXAS because they run on Saturday. That gives me more Sundays to go to church.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadtrash
I've also been codriving for the last two seasons to save some money on tires.
Bottom line = Time & Money
I've got the same delimma. I don't like missing church.
Since I have been an ER BOD member for years (up till last year) and I have run the computer before, during and after the event I have a few things to add. So here is my $1.02 worth. ;)
While they are good ideas, what you aren't looking at is the administration side of doing any or all of what you are talking about.
From my understanding, the clubs that offer 8 runs limit the number of entrants. ER and SCCA don't, except SCCA does for the road course event.
To have everyone take 6 runs and then have the last 2 count towards PAX results is not automatic in Axware, so you are looking at a lot of manual data manipulation. And I believe it would delay the trophy presentation at the end of the event even longer. Few people stick around as it is. To separate the last 2 run times you have to have a different class designation, hence the "R", which adds the PAX multipliers. "T" is already a PAX multiplied class, so breaking it out and paying something to the top 3 entrants would be easy, if you used all 6 runs. The PAX payout is based on the number of entrants, the more that enter the more people get some money. I don't think the Ladies PAX has ever had more than 10 entrants so that payout is only top 3.
Now if you go the route of everyone gets 6 runs and if you pay in a little extra to get entered for PAX money, then you are looking at sorting thru the list and figuring out who paid and then what place they got. Thus another manual calculation at the end of the event, which you are trying to do while the clean up entrants want to load the trailer. I almost forgot the most important part, all these calculations have to be done AFTER you fix the times for people who ran the wrong number, didn't change their class, forgot to put the "T" or "R" on the car, etc…
On a side note, we have to go back and manually DSQ every run after the 3rd run in the "X" class in SCCA, since we only count the first 3 runs and this is usually done at the end of the event and finding these times takes a while because of how Axware works and allows modifications.
There is only a small handful of people who put on the event and get everything going, with some of them doing multiple duties. Volunteering to take on a responsibility, like timing or online registration, would definitely help. And it might actually get some of the ideas and/or changes implemented quicker. In my opinion running in class order only works properly with online registration and when everyone enters online, so you know how big the classes are going to be and you can even out the heats the night before. Doing that the morning of is doable, but is a lot of work to do in a short amount of time.
The PAX multiplier is another can of worms and even I have looked at different ways to add an additional .1 or so to an entrants next event (so his PAX becomes harder). It rarely changed the results and by the 4th event you will have an administrative nightmare trying to figure out what number each past winner of PAX was now running and what class he will be entered under (as you need to create a separate class with that PAX number just for him or you penalize everyone in his class as the PAX number is set by class) and then having the computer operator input the driver in the new class which probably wouldn't be on the car. As in, Mark M. would now be entered in the computer as RESP1 with his new PAX number. It just doesn't make sense to pursue it with little or no effect on the outcome.
Just don't forget, those who put on the events, with any of the clubs, want to run and have fun too. They just don't want to have to do everything, but sometimes they have to.
Thanks for reading, now where did I put that Donut?
I enjoy running ER events because I don't have to register online with AxchrashWare.
After attending the BOD meeting tonight (where my thoughts were listened to and discussed quite a bit), I think its fair to say that ER is trying to please a lot of different people, and trying pretty hard to do so. At the same time, there is a desire to stay true to the mission of ER over the years, which is providing high-level competition and and helping autox-ers to become better at their sport. There is definitely a desire to update some things mentioned in this thread, and also a resistance to reinventing the wheel.
I'd say the best way to change some things about ER is to show-up and run, then speak-up at meetings or send emails/letters; they will listen.
Nice points SpinOutF500.
Anyway, it looks like nice weather and it should be a fun event. I hope to see everyone there.
As a street tire guy, I think the best I ever got in PAX at an ER event was 24th. I always pay into Rapide PAX, so maybe I am just a chump. Sure it would be cool to walk away with money, but I like the extra runs and practice. I always seem to put more pressure on myself for the Rapide PAX runs which is good training for me. I like how ER runs their events SCCA style. I can't speak from experience, but whatever earnings i would get would likely go back into the car for modifications. And the simple fact is that I would still purchase/perform said modifications if I don't win money at ER. I realistic-ly know that I am not Mark Weber yet, and I stress YET. One day I will find some company (fingers crossed for Rockstar or Arizona Tea) to sponser my VW, so that I can live on my winnings. Till then, these are my two ideas for ER Rapide PAX...
Option #1 - Not serious (good for confidence)
Spice it up with real big checks instead of cash. It would be awesome to head into the bank with one of those. Or just save them up in the back seat ala Happy Gilmore.
Option #2 - Serious (good for Karma)
I thought it was awesome how people donated their earnings to Dennis last year. Could we make the Rapide PAX some sort of non-profit donation platform?
Maybe I should have just tried to stay out of this debate. Any who, I'm looking forward to running this event Sunday. See you guys out there. I know I will be trying extra hard to elevate the TGS GTI into the prize money.
An interesting point that was made - and I hadn't realized - is that there are generally less than 5 participants at any given ER event who do NOT pay in to RP, so almost no one is working more runs than they drive. That alleviated some of the "fairness" issue in my mind.
I agree. Depending on the number of participants, part of the money goes to ER, which makes substantial charitable donations every year, so running RP does aid in that goal, even if you don't win (like me.)Quote:
Option #2 - Serious (good for Karma)
I thought it was awesome how people donated their earnings to Dennis last year. Could we make the Rapide PAX some sort of non-profit donation platform?
I wouldn't want it to get to a point where winners felt pressured into donating their winnings, but its a cool idea to make the option available. Maybe ER could make-up RP t-shirts to award for those who donate prize money? (REALLY cheap t-shirts!)
I understand that when I pay my ten dollars for Rapide PAX, that while running on street tires I have a very slim chance of winning money.I accept that. I run Rapide PAX because I am willing to pay $5/run for 2 more runs. The 8 and 10 run clubs have very broad classing, a differant run format,
and no event trophies. I accept those differances. So just tell me where the ax is and I will be there.
Good info SpinOutF500, thanks for posting it.
I think the only club that has a cap on entries is the S2000 club, and I don't think we turned anybody away in the last year. In the past year I don't think ER has had a large enough turn out that we could not have done 8 runs at every event. For me it's not a big deal 6 or 8 runs, something to be said for getting it done in 4 runs, but when we try to get guys from other clubs to come to ER events that seems to be one of the reasons they don't come. The other is the classing most have mods that put them in SP or higher classes, but I would not want to change how ER does their classing.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by lostlorin
I'm not on street tires, but my lack of talent offsets my R-comps. In six years, I have never won any money. It seems that they wait to see that I finished 12th so they can pay to 11th. I kid, I kid.
I will continue to attend ER event.
Based on my experience, 70 seems to be the cap for 8 runs, and even then, you had better start on time and not run into many issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Using 70 as a cap we had 2 events that had to many for 8 runs, event 5 had 201 (100) and event 6 had 159 (80), but most of them were close to the 70. At 3 events it would have been easy to do 8 runs. So maybe doing more than 6 is not realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
BTW, who is the event master?
Katelyn Johnson.
I agree. Been paying the extra $10 for 12 seasons, now. Don't really care if I win money or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by lostlorin
If ER set up a charity, I would gladly donate any Pax earnings to that fund.