Ha ha. That wasn't exactly what I meant, but point taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
It was good to meet you, too.
S.
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Ha ha. That wasn't exactly what I meant, but point taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
It was good to meet you, too.
S.
Just ribbin ya! :nutkick:Quote:
Originally Posted by srivendel
This one comes down completely to course design issues. Tommy ignored car interval when designing the course, and as such it made it a very long event. In general the efficiency of the events are improving, but a large systematic issue of a course that had 50-60 second car intervals is something that can't be overcome. I did suggest truncating the loop so that rather than coming all the way back close to the start, hook back in near the corner by the traffic light. But the rewalk delay would have probably eaten up any gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
It really isn't rocket science. The number of runs is a function of the number of drivers, the start interval, and the amount of time we have the lot.
For example with 180 drivers, a 50 second start interval would mean 3 runs each would take 7.5 hours, with a 25 second start interval those same 3 runs would take 3.75 hrs. Or you could get 6 runs in the same 7.5 hrs. To do that things have to run continuously without interuption. That is one reason we do the hot swaps of workers. Also why I try to make sure that as the last car of the previous heat goes to the line, the first car of the next heat queues in behind, even if all the workers have not reported yet. Also I have pushed to get things started earlier, but that seems to be tough to get certain folks to do. :(
Just a query for folks (maybe this should be a survey) Do folks prefer more runs on a shorter course, or fewer runs on a longer course? 4 runs at 40 seconds vs 3 runs at 60 seconds?
Note that a loop can be an effective course extender on a smaller lot, note Matt Lucas' course for event 2 --> 4 runs in 50 second time range. (and as I recall we got out of there pretty darn early, probably could have gotten another run in if we were confident in our efficiency)
Regards
John
This opinion is free, so take it for what it's worth, but I would prefer a shorter, more technical course, and more runs. As a novice who is still learning a lot with every run, more runs is better because I have time in between to think about what happened on the last run and try to improve the next time.
S.
My answer would be this: I run 8 times with S2K in the 80 to 90 second range... its an easy choice for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
With the limited time that I have to race I have to find the bigest bang for the buck. I can only run once a month, so for me its either S2000 or ER, sorry SCCA. But I hope to run at the next Miatas at the ranch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
I would say four runs on a shorter course. It gives you more time to think about what you have done, and what you can improve.
I loved the course. The only issue was the interval. I found the McDonalds Bend to be a big challenge. As fast as I've ever been at Pennington with elevation changes ;) Not that I like the interval, but that has been :bash: enough.
4x40 sec = 160 seconds
3x60 sec = 180 seconds
I need seat time, and I'm not sure that is enough difference to matter to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onething
I should also say that I really enjoyed the course also. We have said enough about the lag and everything. It was really fun to go faster through the Mcdonalds turn everytime, finally going flat on the first lap of my third run.
I hear ya 3-Bean and Ataim, and I really enjoy the NTS2KOC events... they continue to be the best events in the area. :thumrigh:
On the other hand (and I'm not taking anything away from the people who race at the NTS2KOC events), the level of competition at SCCA and ER events is really top notch. I find that this high level of competition really has pushed me to be a better/faster driver. I've learned a ton by having my hat handed to me by these top drivers -- and I'm not just talking about Miata Pilots. With the PAX indexing, I can actually (if not entirely accurately) judge my performance against all the drivers at an event.
Look, I can't tell you that standing around a parking lot all day for 3 to 4 runs is worth your time -- only you can decide that. But what I can say is that the competition is very intense at SCCA and ER events, and that competition brings out the best in me. I have a ton of fun at the NTS2KOC events. I learn a ton at the the SCCA and ER events. And now that the SCCA is running the events so smoothly, the pain of that learning is not quiet so bad! ;)
YMMV
Can we get a poll here :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
:nutkick: ouch!
I didn't say it was good enough, it's just the best I can do... :rabbit:
Days like yesterday are truly a beating, but Kestrel's above statement is why I keep coming back. The upside is days like yesterday are the exception this year instead of the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
If the powers-that-be would have listened to common freakin' sense concering the event and the final course layout, yesterday wouldn't have been the ass-whipping it was.
well said Kestrel
I agree with Kestrel - the level of competition at ER or SCCA events is the main draw for me. If it were all about seat time, I'd be running S2k & PCA events exclusively.
That said, you'll notice I haven't made many Texas Region events this season. Last season really burned me out on SCCA, so I go to ER for my competition kicks. The fact that I get 6 runs instead of 3 or 4, and that I can win some of my entry fee back make ER an easy choice. I fill out the rest of my schedule with a mix of S2k and PCA events, both of which offer a lot more seat time (and a more laid back environment) than SCCA events.
Wow... Weatherman Fred just told us that it began snowing in Hades!Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
;) :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
Thanks to all who have made comments. I know a portion of y'all, only do things like the S2K events due to number of runs (which with a driver cap of 55 is something you can do) and that is fine (it is a free country afterall). Most of the board is dedicated to making the events a better experience with more runs. That is why my focus is on efficiency of the events. And as always suggestions for improvements are always welcome. We need to work on making sure we have a shorter start interval on course designs. Personally, I also think we need to work on starting earlier as well.
I also want to say that the corner workers did a good job under the conditions, most of the corner worker problems were later in the day when everyone was suffering a bit from the heat and the long shifts due to the course design. Yes we can improve, but there were no disasterous delays.
Regards
John
John - We (S2000) put on just as many runs than SCCA and still finish up by 3-3:30 with a 1 hour lunch break. I bring this up only because I've heard this thrown around a few times now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
S2000 Event
55 Entries x 8 Runs = 440 Runs + 40 Fun Runs = 480 Total Runs
SCCA July 17 Event
167 Entries x 3 Runs = 501 Total Runs
The difference there is 20 runs, 4 more hours, and numerous delays. That's why so many of us have been to very few SCCA events this year. Good people, good competition, just too much time for too little.
Clovis,Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis
No arguments here comparing to this past event. The issue with the July 17th event was the start interval, that is clear.
SCCA events this year
Event 1 122x4 runs = 488 runs
Event 2 150 x 4 runs = 600 runs (I think we were done3-4 ish)
Event 3 154 x 4 runs = 616 runs
Event 4 115 x 5 runs = 575 runs (I think we were done 3-3:30ish)
Event 5 167 x 3 runs = 501 runs
Most of the events other than the last event we were able to get out fairly early. Personally I think if we start on time, and have a course that has a reasonably short start interval we should be able to do on the order of 800 runs in a day. I would at least like to target 5 runs. I will be pushing for better start intervals and on time start of event at the board meetings.
I will take issue with the numerous delays comment. At Sunday's event the only real delay was the FSAE car that lost a wheel and that was cleared in a couple of minutes. Yes there were some reruns, but I attribute that to course design and its consequences.
It is a free market and people will go to the events they think they will get the best combination of seat time, competition and enjoyment. I respect folks decisions as to participating or not participating in SCCA events. My focus is to improve the quality of SCCA events. I think we must be doing ok, last year the diatribes lasted all week after an event :D
Regards
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis
Also don't forget that at MW the course is twice as long as it is at Penington :lol:
I agree with you JStankus... delays at this year's events -- including last Sunday's -- have not been not nearly as problematic as they were in past years. I'm telling ya folks, the current leaders of the SCCA have really stepped up their game! In my opinion, the SCCA events are running on par with (or maybe even slightly better than) Equipe Rapide events. I'll say it again: if you haven't given them a try this year, you don't know what you are missing. :thumrigh:Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
There's no denying the bang-for-the-buck that you get at an NTS2KOC event, and the casual atmosphere is really very nice. Competition is keen, but it's not the primary thing at those events. That's why my AX schedule includes SCCA, ER and NTS2KOC events*. I go to the SCCA and ER events for the serious competition (again, not just with the Miatas, but against all the cars using PAX indexing), and I go to the NTS2KOC autocrosses for a lot of seat time and a ton of fun. Neither is inherently "better" than the other, they just offer something a little different.
--------------------------
* Having said that NTS2KOC events are on my schedule, I have yet to make one this year... :(
Another advantage S2k seems to have is corner working. Almost everyone there has experience. The quality of work is much better, leading quite a bit fewer reruns. I dont know how many times at an SCCA event, there are down cones that cause reruns, and it is all because there were a couple of newbies at a corner. This isnt really anyones fault, just something else the takes more time at SCCA events, and not S2k. That being said, now that I am working at a different job, I have made all of the events held by both clubs.
You're definitely the resident cone whore. :cat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik
S.
You're half right. :sunny:Quote:
Originally Posted by srivendel
http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/...milie_wash.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by sammm
S.
Any ideas on how we can improve this? IMHO, I think we are doing better with Matt Lucas doing the corner work description, rather than me rambling on. There has got to be more we can do to improve in this department. This is probably course design dependent as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik
Regards
John
Edit- fixed quote
Insist the guy with the radio/flag at each corner has experience. I was at an event last year at Pennington when the radio/flag guy was sitting under the trees. I guess it's also up to the experienced guys to watch for downed cones, etc. and dispatch the newbies as necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
He didn't touch any cones! I was impressed by his restraint. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by srivendel
This is probably a good idea. There ought to be a "director" at each corner, someone with experience (especially with experience at making worthwhile radio calls), who can handle the radio, the flag, and direct the other corner workers. That doesn't mean that the "director" won't get to shag a few cones as well, but it does mean that we'll (hopefully) have someone with some experience directing the show at every corner in every heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
I believe the corner workers should be more spread out, most of them tend to seperate, but IMHO they should be spread out more, to cover the course better. I also like the idea of an experienced "director" at each corner station.
If you have an experienced director spreading out wouldn't be an issue. :wink: Your always going to run across the guys who want to chat the heat away and in some cases you can get away with it, but in the rare occasion you can’t it’s time to spread out.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackzx3_13
On last week’s event the only evil corner was corner 4 when they had the slalom, since the course design didn’t allow for any breaks in the action for the course workers to clear the course, I know I had to stop for a course worker who was still in the slalom when I got there.
The SCCA is doing a much better job this year than they did last year!
Saturday’s course while fun was scheduled on the wrong event, since it was know in advance that Dr. Bob was bringing 40 of his closest SAE buddies. Hopefully the have learned from this and will continue to improve!
BTW. OZCop what was up with you extremely loud CRX :wink:
Hey notice how if we gripe about a SCCA event Stankus makes a guest appearance and throws in his state of the nation blurbs, good times good times!! :drunken:
I think people just dont understand the circumstances. I know adding more info to the drivers meeting isnt a great thing to do, as it all sort of blends together. Maybe during the novice walk through, explain the down and out rule, and the expectations of a corner worker. Let them know they aren't just peons, but a very important part of the event as a whole. Other than that, like others said, have someone with some experience at each corner. Make people aware that the radio person does have this experience, and as long as they dont abuse the power they should be listened to. However, I and a few others here witnesed a very experienced corner worker miss three or four down cones at the Bus Lot event. He had to be yelled at from across the lot to make him aware of the cones.Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
In the end, it's "volunteers" doing this work, so it's never going to be perfect. But having a strong, knowledgeable person with the radio and someone kinda overseeing the entire heat's "flow" will help.
- Additional talk/instruction during the Drivers Meeting is almost completely useless, since nobody (and I'm as guilty as the next person) is listening. So don't bother talking longer at the Drivers Meeting. But make sure to clearly say the words "When working a corner, spread out so that you don't have to run so far to reset a cone". A couple of times.
- As already mentioned, the person with the radio/flag needs to be an experienced autocrosser, and should be told he/she is responsible for directing the actions of the corner workers. This is difficult to determine, but not impossible.
- Control needs to... take control. Remind the corners a couple of times during the heat to spread out. Also, if Control notices a lot of re-runs coming in a particular corner, he/she should ask someone to check that corner out and report back any problems.
- Make a work assignment "Heat Worker Director" for a few people. These folks -- one or two per heat -- would DEFINITELY be experienced autocrossers, and would spend the heat observing each corner and each worker, and making... corrections... when needed. I know the Worker Chief is primarily responsible for this, but he can't be everywhere at once. Anyway the Heat Worker Director needs a radio, so they can radio back to Control / Safety / Worker Chief if help is required. Now, they don't have to be just "policemen"... they can also call for water or report bad radios, or whatever...
I was thinking on the same lines. Something on the order of Course Marshall, to circulate amongst the corners and troubleshoot issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
Any volunteers?
Regards
John
It's really pretty simple... If I don't know what the issues and concerns are, it's a bit more difficult to address them. I probably need to get some input from the general solo list Phil A. set up as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
Regards
John
Don't miss POS's point... all he's saying is we'd like to see you around the forum more often, not when we're discussing SCCA challenges. :wink: At least that's what I think his point is...Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
Wouldn't that be a good thing for the Safety Stewarts to handle since a bad corner worker could be a safety issue???Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
I actually think this is a perfect job for altiain and POS, as they love telling people what to do! :razz: Kidding aside, they are both seasoned autocrossers, and neither is shy...Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
That way you can bake all alone in the hot sun, rather than enjoying the comraderie of your fellow corner workers. :-?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
It's a sensible idea, but people are naturally going to congregate together. And when the heats are 2.5-3 hours long, you can't expect people not to seek one anothers' company.
S.