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I didn't see the guy with no numbers on his car, but I did go grab the closest safety guy to bitch about the Mustang doing donuts only to see the Boss man give him a warning....
You make it sound like we do nothing at these events, and that is an incorrect assumption on your part.
So what you are saying is since we didn't throw a tantrum and stomp our feet during the event (which would further delay things), pointing out the problems we all observed now serves no purpose?Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
Here's a thought. Take the feedback from today and carry it forward to future events and make them even better!
I hope you're not taking all this personally John. You seem to be acting in behalf of the regional SCCA, and that's where this feedback is aimed at.
I think what JStankus is saying is he's reached his "terminal bash capacity". :wink:
Sorry JS... we aren't really beating you up, although I know it feels like that sometimes. We are frustrated with some things, and you're the only SCCA Board Member willing to hang around here and listen to our... suggestions. Thanks :)
Oops... wrote this whole thing and remembered what my momma always said... So I'm adding this at the beginning.
POSITIVE FEEDBACK!!!!
I was delighted to see that current key members of the board were taking a very careful look at a spin near the finish that (gasp!!!) could have (just barely remotely possibly) dumped a car upside down and analyzing ways to avoid such spins in the future. Way to go, guys!!!
Well... the rest is not so positive, but it's absolutely 100% necessary if anyone supporting the SCCA expects anything positive to happen anytime soon...
Selfishness by one of our participants means we're adding yet another 10 seconds to the driver's meeting to announce:
"Anyone checking in for a work assignment may proceed ONLY to that work assignment. Don't check in until you're ready to work."
For the second time this year, I've managed the privilege of a trailer shift to cover someone who skipped out on us.
Feedback #2?
Make sure we remember to put cones AFTER rather than before the timing lights when we set the course up so we don't have to change things after the end of heat 1.
Feedback #3?
We've got to put an end to random enforcement of rules. Mustang driver? Get his name, and ban him. Period. That's what we said we'd do, so we have to do it.
If Garcia can't get his car rolling without tire spin, he needs to find another sport. I heard at least twenty people (no doubt the ones that he pissed on during tech) complain about tire spin from the 67 car in grid.
Winged Civic pilot? Find a baby sitter or stay home. No kids in grid. You've been warned and warned and warned. Consider just bringing your kids out to let them race. Then you don't have to work during the event.
We need to start rewarding folks who are willing to do the hard jobs. Computer, Scribe, Penalties/Control and Starters need to work as a team. We need to support the vote of the board of directors to quash class run order to allow the return of season long 4 person teams in the trailer/start.
Ouch. Thank you for your support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
It's just frustrating. I year or two ago I used to joke that it was a miracle if ER could get a car on course by noon. Nowadays, they run one heck of a show - last event notwithstanding, although most of those problems were weather related. But ER has really stepped up and put on good quality events this season.
Texas Region, on the other hand, has gone in the opposite direction. They used to run like clockwork, but this season it has looked more like they're trying to stay one step ahead of disaster... and sometimes falling short. Unfortunately, the problems seem so numerous that it's hard to even develop a plan of attack to address them - 3 run events, timer/computer/equipment problems, worker no-shows, veteran prima donnas, corner working quality, etc.
I think one of the biggest root causes is the event size. It's a hell of a lot easier to put on a quality event for 100 or 150 people than it is for 200+ people. Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the few (if only) members who would support an event cap. Personally, I don't think most of the other systemic problems are going to get better until you start capping events.
It's high time Texas Region learned to put on a quality show for a smaller crowd, and worked on fine-tuning the system (control, equipment, worker training, etc.) at that level, before they try to run events for 200+ people, imho. Oncew the people and the processes are trained and capable of efficiently handling smaller-sized events, then I think it would be acceptable to start moving the cap upwards. But right now there are too few people with too little knowledge trying to handle too many tasks to run events for too many people, imho. We have some well trained and dedicated people (TC and JStankus, for example), but there aren't enough of them to go around.
Well, first off I want to make sure folks know I appreciate the efforts they do make Lauren, Rich, Iain, Hal and everyone else. (sorry I haven't quite connected screen names with real names).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
I'm a little bit tired this morning, and maybe my reaction to the Clown car picture came off a bit brash. I apologize if my comments were taken in a wrong light.
John
No need to apologize. Venting is a 2-way street. My clown-car picture was meant to get your (or whoever's) attention and it seems to have worked.Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
Come on. Tailchaser does quite a bit behind the scenes helping hold things together (and keeping me out of trouble by knowing some of the folks better than I do). Thanks TC
John
Yes, that was good of them to look into that... However, it really was only looked into after the heat 2 corner workers pointed out that "we might want to look at that" as the last gate and the extreme enforcement of the hard braking zone after the finish left about half of the cars *extremely* unsettled in the braking zone. In that heat alone I watched two off tracks, one spin, and several other "near misses" I do agree that it was a situation that warranted improvement, good job!Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
100% agreementQuote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
While he has done a half decent job of keeping that car under control this year (compared to last year) I personally believe that that car is downright dangerous on an autoX course. If he wants to drive that fine.. Take it to a road course, not a parkinglot with pedistrians scattered around. I don't care how important your job is in the organiation, but if you cannot reach a speed where your car is remotely effective (giant wings don't do anything on an autoX course.. ESPECIALLY when you're going sideways) Ok [/rant]Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
All in all the SCCA is doing a great job, and I do thank the hard work of all the people attempting to make it right, but it really seems almost like there are too many people with too big of egos that just keep getting in the way and screwing a lot of thing up. I'll continue to attend my
Ok... I"m done.. So what are we doing next year? I'm still selecting my SCCA races by venue.. I dunno if you could pay me to blow a whole day for 3 runs at the midget Pennington lot.
Agreed. Said individuals should also be banned from attendance for a minimum of a calendar year, imho. No questions, no excuses, no second chances. Skipping your work assignment is bad enough, checking in and then skipping your work assignment is not only a crappy thing to do, but it shows deliberate intent to deceive. I don't want people like that at our events, period.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
Agreed. See my comment above - in my opinion, doing something like this in the pits is enough of a safety violation to warrant banishment in my opinion. We warn against crap like this at every event I've ever attended, and I don't care if he was done for the day at the time or not. A warning isn't sufficient - send him packing immediately and let it be known that he won't be welcomed back.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
Agreed, again. It is time to stop applying the rules differently to different people. I don't care if JG is a board member with ER & Texas Region, he has to abide by the same rules, regulations, and standards of behavior as the rest of us. In fact, given his position I think he ought to be held to a higher standard as an example to the newcomers.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
I don't know what that's about, but it sounds like it ties into my previous comments on uniform application of the rules and standards for behavior for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
Agreed. Hopefully next season's changes will allow for some improvements.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
:shock: Good point Tailchaser. And I guess onething and altiain should feel slighted too, as I think they are on the SCCA Board as well. Did I miss anyone? I don't know who is officially "on the Board" and who just regularly attends their meetings (POS Racing?).Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
Sorry for getting it wrong... again... :oops:
"Where was the General and SOLO2M3?"
At Mineral Wells enjoying 8 runs and great weather with the LSBMWCCA.
Even got into 4th on the usual straight on the East side of M.W. And the General had a rare grin on his face after heat #1 and #2.
I managed to get 7 of 8 runs before the silly German car decided to puke coolant. Only took 3 bottles of Wal Mart Pure Spring Water to get home.
I've got 1st in class wrapped up with SCCA but YTD points are still a dogfight with the BMW club. And my 2nd place finish yesterday didn't help.
OUTRACE was at the BMW event also. Think we all had a great time. There where about 52 drivers. Sure this belongs in the BMW autocross thread but what is it about Mustang drivers and tire spinning donuts. A BMW and a Mustang both made about $150 dollars worth of black marks after the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLO2M3
My point is that in the effort of keeping the event running smoothly in the event of a mechanical failure the trailer can, in a pinch, accomodate this. Not that this should be a habbit. I cannot however see the person coming up to the start a second time around with the wrong number / class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
Unfortunately, I think it's easier for them to come to the line with "bad numbers" the second time around... if you don't stop them the first time. They think to themselves "He, he, he... I made it the first time. Why would they stop me the second or third time around?" What I'm saying is you'd have to make a big deal about it the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by brock
But for me, there's a bigger issue that is disappointing about this particular instance. This wasn't some noob Novice making a mistake because he/she didn't know any better. This was [apparently] the Vice President of Spokes, a well respected, and well established autocross organization in the Austin area (I think). He knew better. And he came up to the line like that anyway. Sorry, there just isn't any excuse.
I have half a mind to go to one of their events and do the same thing to them. I feel quite sure they would pitch a bitch at me for coming to the starting line like that. :roll:
Having been on the board at Spokes for several years before I moved up here, I think it would not have been a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
Honestly, I don't see why folks are so cranked up about the numbers on a borrowed car due to a mechanical.
***I may regret this since I am pretty tired today...
But do the folks up here in the DFW area generally not like each other?
I've heard so much about "they"
"they" the modified prima donnas
"they" the noobies
"they" the only come out when they feel like it
"they" the ricers
"they" the muscle car thugs
what about "us" the autocrossers
Some of 'us' have cars that have special needs that need to be accomodated,
Some of 'us' are new and need to learn the ropes and have experienced folks help teach us the right way to do things
some of 'us' enjoy coming out to play occasionally, but are not hardcore competitive
Some of 'us' like to dress our cars up
Some of 'us' gotta have a V8 (I don't exactly fit in a Miata :? )
But all of 'us' enjoy autocrossing
John
Well, I guess we are going to seriously disagree after all. I think it boils down to two things for me. I expect the "Big-Wigs" to:
- Follow the rules.
- Lead by Example.
Neither of these seems to be high on the leadership's list of "things to do". We make exceptions at every event, not for the general rank-n-file -- us autocrossers, us Novices, us people who have mechanical problems with our cars (like broken lug nuts, or corded tires) -- but for the people who are in charge. Want names? You've gotten two direct, specific examples in this thread alone (Holt, Garcia).
Do you think one of us grunts could have shown up at the Start with numbers like that? And more to the point, do you think any of us grunts would have even tried? No, we know better. We know the rules and follow them, and us Novices that "break" the rules, typically do so because we don't know any better. On the other hand, the experienced leaders in the SCCA know better. Garcia is the TECH CHIEF for God's sake - and complains incessantly about Tommy Saunders car -- but he still does burn-outs in the paddock and has to be pushed to the line in his car. How does his conscience even allow him to yell at us Novices for having letters that are .25" too narrow?
Are there Board Members who are doing the right things and trying to make a difference? Sure there are (heck, it should be those Board Members who are raising the biggest fuss with the offending Board Members, since those offenders make you all look bad). Can us grunts help? Sure, and it starts by (1) following the rules, and working hard at whatever job we are doing. From my viewpoint, we (meaning us autocrossers, particularly us Miata Pilots who are for the most part "self-policing") are doing both of those things.
But the SCCA Board's favoritism and elitism remains at the heart of the problem. The rules simply do not apply to the "Big-Wigs", and from the tone of your last post, you are apparently ready to let it ride. Yep, we're gonna disagree my friend...
I had fun, was schooled by The General, discovered there are drivers worse than I, and figured out what I should do to my car next.Quote:
Originally Posted by general default
The donut thing didn't bother me with only 50-odd drivers at the Mineral Ring. It's their money, but that sort of insanity at Pennington would have caused a riot.
i am not saying that it is a bad idea for cars to be teched after an off track excursion, but for me to pass tech the first time, then go back and get bitched at about things that was cleared by another tech inspector, no i cannot tolerate that.
I think that the biggest factor in the event not running as smooth as some wanted, is the freaking huge number of people; kinda hard to get everyone on the same page if you ask me.
i had fun, and thats what i set out to do.
hey guys, outtatowner here
One of the most important things i've learned at autocrossers is to take much of the stressful situations with a grain of salt. It makes for sore butt cheeks to walk around with such a tight ass reading the rulebook every second of the day.
There's no need to bitch and moan and stomp your feet like some feel they need to do, that just makes you tired and makes the person you're trying to belittle think you're an asshole. Whenever I see screaming going on I just stand there and wish i had a box of popcorn. If anyone ever starts bitching at me for some silly reason I just smile back, and well, wish i had a box of popcorn until they finish :) then go about my merry way!
not every event goes perfectly by the book. It's how you deal with each curve that is thrown at you and this is something that Texas Region did well yesterday on most parts, and they were thrown a LOT of curveballs.
be thankful that y'all have JStankus on their Board. You're NOT going to find another calming person when helping to run things. it takes a lot to piss him off, i'm sure, and hopefully you'll never have to see that :) anyone else would take these bashings quite personally, but he's done an outstanding job representing TR.
just have fun! i find it's MUCH more fun to whine and find excuses for why we all drove so badly :) benchracing! wouldacouldas! didn't!
Dan
SM2
"i broke my transmission"
"my tires were too small"
"the clouds got in my eyes"
"someone put cones in my way"
There was little communication in the grid, and the mod cars were taking their time in getting ready. I worked 4th heat at the grid.
There was only ONE radio for the ENTIRE grid. I was told JG's car was a 3-drivers car when it was almost done! When I tried to call their cars up in line, each time took them a long time to get ready. I understand the mod cars are not like street car and takes longer to get started. But, don't stand around and talk, but work on your cars when you came back from the previous run and get ready for the next. Especially when you have 3 drivers!
To make the 4th heat worse was the re-runs. The red Camero had 2 reruns!
In a remote grid situation, we need more radios!
The mod car dirvers need to get ready just like other drivers and not run the day according to THEIR schedules!
"and I still beat that sucka in the N/A S2000" :DQuote:
Originally Posted by beagleracing
Appreciate the optimism, well said. There needs to be a lot more of what you described in the TR. Unfortunately, it will take some buy in from a few of our leaders before this will become the norm. For the most part we've taken this stance in the S2000 club and the results have been great.
Unfortunately, I can't find a good excuse for my miserable performance... :cry: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by beagleracing
Welcome to our little piece of heaven, Dan. I will absolutely second your opinion that JStankus has done extremely well accepting our complaints - and suggestions! - about the SCCA events this year, and not taking them personally. I've said in several posts that I'm amazed at his resilience. Quite frankly, I'm not so thick-skinned, and I've said so. :P
On the other hand, what you preceive as bitching and moaning and stomping our feet is not directed at JS, but at an organization that we've all seen really slip in the last 12 months or so. We are dismayed, and we are trying very hard to help by (1) pointing out problems as we see them, and (2) making suggestions for improvement when we can. Many members of this forum are on the SCCA Board, and many others have been to SCCA meetings... out little community of Miata Pilots are doing our part to help!
Your popcorn idea is a good one, and I know that I for one should take that advise... it would save me a lot of stress :shaking: . On the other hand, that strikes me as sorta giving up, and leaving the difficult work -- the work of making things better for everyone -- up to someone else. I guess that's OK, but I'd bet that's not really the kind of thing that JS -- and the rest of the SCCA Board -- is really hoping for. :wink: There are lots of people in our area "eating popcorn", and not contributing in any way to the process of improvement.
Man, all this talk of popcorn reminds me that I haven't had any dinner! :lol:
Heck, I'd be happy if we could just get everyone to eat popcorn together. One thing that has worked well elsewhere, is have a place to informally meet after the event. Back in Austin, it was tradition to go to Taco Cabana for beer and cheap Mexican food after the event. Everyone got to know each other a bit better. And there was a bit more commaraderie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
John
John you totally missed it :roll:! We could care less if it was a loaner, all we were talking about was the fact was not numbered at all for the trailer and course workers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JStankus
Welcome to the Madness beagleracing, think you also may have misinterpreted our banter. May have something to do with the North Texas to Central Texas language differences. :wink:
It was great meeting alot of you. Next time I will bring a table and a few chairs to make it easier to eat.
i was putting the Spec car on the trailer when the mustang was doing his impression of starsky and hutch, just wondering how long it would take before his backside would recieved the boot. silly noisy man.....
Anyone ever run a Spec car in an autocross around here? got a few at the shop that might be fun to run......
Welcome to the board, Dan. :chug:Quote:
Originally Posted by beagleracing
It's good to hear an "outside" perspective, and I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the event on Sunday. Unfortunately, Tom's reign this year has been a little turbulent so far, and what you're hearing is a little venting and discussion from some people that have been intimately involved with it, good, bad, and ugly.
We are very thankful to have Jstankus, both on the TR board and on this one. He's done an excellent job, and I for one hope he decides to come back again next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by beagleracing
At the same time, please don't mistake this thread as an attack on Texas Region events from disgruntled but uninvolved participants. After all, we've got three Texas Region board members (tailchaser, JStankus, and myself) actively participating in this thread, and probably that many again lurking in the shadows. :wink:
So what was Sunday's excuse? After all, you guys were only a second faster than Chris Williams (who schooled the rest of us in C Stock). :PQuote:
Originally Posted by beagleracing
By the way, the next time you're looking for a good excuse, this handy-dandy excuse generator is quite useful. :wink:
Sounds like I missed out on the fun!
Hey guys, this is my first post, just bought a '94 Miata. Just thought I would chime in since I was out there sunday. I met a few of you guys that referred me here, dont remember your names, but I had a good time chatting with the few Miata guys that I saw around.
I was driving the dirty as hell blue 02 civic(NSTS #10) that was turning in mediocre times :D I've been to all the SCCA events so far this season(this is my first year autoXing) & one ER event, & I really enjoyed how together the ER club was. But I can also halfway understand that SCCA has 250+ drivers coming out.
All in all I had a great time, I liked this track better than the last roadcourse event for some reason, although I wish we could have had 4 runs.
Here is some pics of my new miata, & some of my Civic at the track, let me know what you think.
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/703161
I cant wait till next season, im going to be ditching the civic & running the Miata 8)
Man, I just love that excuse generator. It really takes the drudgery out of explaining my poor performance! Thanks, Altiain!
Mark52
CSP52
"the car just didn't feel right"
"must have been bad gas"
"scared of high speeds"
"couldn't find 3rd gear"
"too much in the trunk"
and on, and on, and on
:D
Oh, I've got a TON of excuses! (i save many of them ;)) the transmission did give some issues, it wouldn't shift into 2nd gear on the 2nd and 3rd runs. I wasted a LOT of time after teh start trying to get it into 2nd gear, it just wouldn't go. and the tires excuse is minor. i was running on a free set of 205/50/15 Avons. They're a good tire, but well undersized to put down 270hp effectively. i was spinning the rears way too much, especially through the long sweepers. and finally, my battery was dying. we had troubles starting the car in grid and then when I'd get on the gas under heavy load it would start missing and sputtering, i just don't think it had the juice to keep up.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
Chris drove incedibly well, but give me 6 looks at the course like he had (rerun king) and I guarantee there were some mid 54s out there.
btw, i didn't mean to imply that you guys were the ones bitching and moaning and stomping your feet, it was in reference to watching folks like JG do it for silly reasons during the event.
As for Tom, you guys really need to take some time to really get to know him. He comes off extremely brash but I guarantee he has the biggest heart out there. He genuinely cares about EVERYONE's safety and livelihood. His military background just has him set in certain ways. I used to think the same thing about him, but once we got closer as good friends I realized what a genuinely great guy he is and how easy it is to work with him. he really does have the club's best interests at heart.
dp
Yep, Robert J. runs a red Spec Miata at most events. 8) He plays in DSP, and does pretty well. As a comparison to the other Miata's, his times are usually mid pack of the CSers around here. That's not too bad considering that a Spec Miata is running around with a full roll cage and hardtop (weight, weight, weight) that offsets the advantages of the striped interior and race suspension.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorage327
Bring one of your SMs and see what you think... I'm sure Robert would enjoy the head-to-head competition! And if you'd like someone to co-drive one, I'd love to take a Spec Miata around the course, just to see how they feel! :twisted:
I noticed you and Dani were on Avons on Sunday. And I agree on the reruns - I think both he and Adrian got six runs on Sunday, and there were a couple of others in C Stock that saw the course more than three times (not me, unfortunately :cry: ). Add in Chris's slide-through-the-pointer-cones-stop-back-up-and-avoid-all-penalties finish on his last run, and I'd say he's got the luck of the devil. :wink:
Yeah, he does have a little talent, but I'm convinced it's mostly just luck. :P
As for Tom - he is a crusty old fella ( :wink: ), but I like him. He does a great job and works hard, and I didn't mean to imply that the problems we've been having this year are his fault, because I don't think they are. His tenure has been turbulent not because of anything Tom has done or not done, but because we've tried to change some things this year and we've encountered a lot of problems by doing so.
im gonna go with the i couldnt get 3rd gear excuse.... i hit 5th every time for some reason... guess motormounts are on the list now... i do doubt that it affected my times though. first time pushing this car really hard since i got it. it reacted totally different than im used to, so im gonna get used to it i guess :roll:
I agree. From what I have seen and heard (some of it first hand at an SCCA Meeting), he's gotten a ton resistance and pettiness from a number of people. Trying new things is usually a good idea... it just takes time to work out the kinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
I'm going to try to collect everyones comments and concerns and make sure the board is aware of them. If you have anything you want addressed please send it along to me. Specific details are helpful, but I want to make sure I understand everyone's concerns here. No promises as to whether they will be addressed the way you want, but I will try to make Tom and the board aware of your concerns.
Also if you know of other folks who have concerns, please have them get in touch with me.
Regards
John
I work in more of a lurker mode most times but --
I do see changes to the better, moving the kid karts to the end of the first heat etc...
Some of the suggestion posted are things that have worked in other events that we have been involed in over the past years... I believe one of the best was the trailer/starting crews that would work the whole event. I realize that that is a impositiion but the synergy that a crew gets when it happenes does have a impact.
We had our grips on sunday, and I think POS stated it best, give it straight and reward the attendes if things go well. I do agree that there needs to be a level playing field, whether you are a vetran of years or new to the event.
All in all we had good runs, we are chasing are targets and hopefully going in the right direction. Next year if all goes to plan we would like to get to a couple of regionals and on to the nationals if we can understand all the rules etc....
to finish ,
it was a good day nothing broke,
every run was better than the last
met with a lot of good people ( miata owners at that)
and had a good time
:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
I can't believe you guys are making such a stink about this but since you are then maybe you need to hear the *real* story instead of jumping to conclusions.
I ran the car with legal numbers.
Tom Holt's car broke when his co-driver was on his first run.
I let Tom use my car for his last two runs.
We were running in the same heat so there was no time to track down any tape. I don't have tape because I have mags. Tom didn't have tape because his numbers are permanent. There was NO TIME to go looking for tape.
The only thing I could think of was to flip the numbers so the starter and trailer would know it was not me. Not only that but I went up to the starter and explained the situation and made sure he passed on to the trailer what was going on.
This did not affect scoring or present an advantage or disadvantage to anyone .... I'm not sure I'm clear on what the beef really is.
Tom drove 3 hours, leaving early Sunday morning for this event. A far greater travesty would have been that he did not get three runs in because of time wasted looking for other numbers or tape.
If you know anything about Spokes then you know we run tight events and are sticklers on the rules. But by the same token we recognize unique situations that are exceptions to the rule and try not to penalize folks for unfortunate circumstances.
I suspect any one of you would be none too happy if you drove three hours for a Spokes event but missed runs because of strict adherence to the rules. Yeah ... we need rules, but this is supposed to be fun, and there can be exceptions to rules ... this is a perfect case in point.
If any of you lost a place in the standings because of this then I suggest you file a protest. I'll even support you in that protest.
But if you are complaining because rules were bent to accommodate an unfortunate circumstance with no bearing on final results then I cannot support that.
WordQuote:
Originally Posted by beagleracing