sway bar crew: did they actually make you faster?

I need to shave some time off my laps times so one day I can sit at the adult table this xmas. My 1:44's are hallett are shamefull.

Did fatter sway bars actually reduce your lap times? I'm happy with f/r bias in pretty much any condition right now (because I'm green and don't know any better), but instructors seem to think its "well balanced" or "easy to drive."

I'm also still really afraid to "track it out in on the curb" before I enter the corner, instead I'm conservative and point the car out to the curbs on exit, after apex.

:burnrubr:

I don't know if it made me much faster but definetely instilled more confidence in the car. Of course I only have a front sway and it's at full soft right now. I read many people had good success with the FM bars front at full soft and rear in the middle setting.

I'm not much of a track guy but I've driven a lot of Miatas. Can't say that I like any with a big rear bar.

You may want to consider the big front/stock rear bar setup. It's at least cheaper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miatamoto

I'm not much of a track guy but I've driven a lot of Miatas. Can't say that I like any with a big rear bar.

You may want to consider the big front/stock rear bar setup. It's at least cheaper.

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Yeah, but then I'll have uneven handlobraesing. The balance is right now, so I need to make even adjustments front and rear. However, I like what you did there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

I don't know if it made me much faster but definetely instilled more confidence in the car.

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+1

As for setting with bigger bars, I have tried the following:

FM Front- Stiff setting, FM Rear- Middle setting: Too tail happy for my taste.
FM Front- Stiff setting, OEM rear bar:- pushed too much for my taste.
FM Front- Stiff setting, FM Rear- soft setting: just right for my taste.

YRMV.

I was very happy with my E-stock setup with the big RB hollow bar up front and the stock rear. I went to 2 track days with that setup and had no complaints.

Hallet will be my first track day on the CSP setup. I'm now running the big front bar and no rear sway.

Another note... I found that the differences in feel between the different sway bar combos were much more noticeable auto-crossing then they were on the track.

Right now I'm running hollow racing beat front and rear on my 97. I had the solid FM's soft up front and middle in the rear and wanted to try something a little different. On 195/50/15 T1-R's I noticed that the car has less initial understeer with less tendency to transition to oversteer. If you were running stickier tires you may find that you'd like the stiffer bars. I've got Tein HA's, Urethane Bushings, and fully adjustable heim jointed end links with a Torsen LSD.
I can still kick the rear out when I want, but now I have more confidence on turn-in.

My 2cents!!

lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

I need to shave some time off my laps times so one day I can sit at the adult table this xmas. My 1:44's are hallett are shamefull.

Did fatter sway bars actually reduce your lap times? I'm happy with f/r bias in pretty much any condition right now (because I'm green and don't know any better), but instructors seem to think its "well balanced" or "easy to drive."

I'm also still really afraid to "track it out in on the curb" before I enter the corner, instead I'm conservative and point the car out to the curbs on exit, after apex.

:burnrubr:

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Next time we go to Hallett together I'll ride with you for a session and you can ride with me for a session. (We'll have to put in your passenger seat, though.;)) Looking at my video from 7/22, you drive a pretty good line, but there are places that you could shave time. I might need to motivate you to be more aggressive......like Gary did to me.

As far as sway bars go, I would definitely recommend the racing beat set up. I run the hollow bar up front with the brace and the solid bar in the rear. The sway bars made more of a difference in steering feedback and car feel than the stock bars did with the flex's.

If we can get you to use the whole track, where necessary, your car will be better prepared for the next segment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnwag

Next time we go to Hallett together I'll ride with you for a session and you can ride with me for a session. (We'll have to put in your passenger seat, though.;)) Looking at my video from 7/22, you drive a pretty good line, but there are places that you could shave time. I might need to motivate you to be more aggressive......like Gary did to me.

As far as sway bars go, I would definitely recommend the racing beat set up. I run the hollow bar up front with the brace and the solid bar in the rear. The sway bars made more of a difference in steering feedback and car feel than the stock bars did with the flex's.

If we can get you to use the whole track, where necessary, your car will be better prepared for the next segment.

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I'm going again this weekend. :burnrubr:

hey hey hey...I actually put one wheel off last time...lol. Where specifically can you give me some advice? I really feel like I'm giving it all she's got, captain.

Put up that video man, I'd love to see where I can approve. Hopefully you have a good shot of my drift through #4...lol.


This weekend I'm going to work on progressively tightening the wheel into the apex, and loosening the wheel progressively (actually, isn't that digressively) out of the corner. I've been taking every corner with by turning the wheel to "X" position, and leaving it there from turn in, through the apex, then out to the corner. ThaI've been treating every corner on every track like "horseshoe, boothill, and tombstone" at msr.

I'm such a novice...lol. When I get back in town, if I get this desk job, I'm probably getting a membership at ECR though.

bitches.

I can't say for sure that sway bars resulted in faster lap times for me. But they do seem to help with making the car feel more stable (less lean) on the track. That has to help with confidence which should result in being quicker.

I've played with a couple combinations and now use '99 Racing Beat hollows set to full stiff on the front and FM on the rears set to full soft. I have the RB sway bar brace also. If your car is balanced now I wouldn't mess with it.

It seems to me that you might just need to have a rabbit to chase. Or have an instructor (one who knows Miatas real well) go out with you and show you the limits of your car. My biggest improvement was when a instructor, who drives Spec Miatas, took my car out and showed me what it could do. What an eye-opener that was. I learn that I was coasting too much into and thru a few corners. Sometimes you can make up more time by not braking too early and getting back on the throttle sooner.

Like my instructor said to me "If your not using full throttle, in a Miata, you'd better be using full brakes". Might be a bit of an exageration but it is something that rings in my head when I find myself coasting thru braking zones.

And start using all of the track on the exit of the turn. If you aren't tracking out under full throttle then you're just not going to have the speed you need on the straights to knock time off your laps. Miatas are a momentum car, watch the good Spec drivers (in the 1 or two corners that you can stay with them). They'll show you how a miata is supposed to be driven.

One last thing. Just keep pressing on and don't worry so much about lap times. You'll improve more when your not looking at time sheets. Find someone who is quicker than you are and work on chasing them down. Then move onto the next faster driver. Repeat until everyone is behind you :burnrubr:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2K Miata

I can't say for sure that sway bars resulted in faster lap times for me. But they do seem to help with making the car feel more stable (less lean) on the track. That has to help with confidence which should result in being quicker.

I've played with a couple combinations and now use '99 Racing Beat hollows set to full stiff on the front and FM on the rears set to full soft. I have the RB sway bar brace also. If your car is balanced now I wouldn't mess with it.

It seems to me that you might just need to have a rabbit to chase. Or have an instructor (one who knows Miatas real well) go out with you and show you the limits of your car. My biggest improvement was when a instructor, who drives Spec Miatas, took my car out and showed me what it could do. What an eye-opener that was. I learn that I was coasting too much into and thru a few corners. Sometimes you can make up more time by not braking too early and getting back on the throttle sooner.

Like my instructor said to me "If your not using full throttle, in a Miata, you'd better be using full brakes". Might be a bit of an exageration but it is something that rings in my head when I find myself coasting thru braking zones.

And start using all of the track on the exit of the turn. If you aren't tracking out under full throttle then you're just not going to have the speed you need on the straights to knock time off your laps. Miatas are a momentum car, watch the good Spec drivers (in the 1 or two corners that you can stay with them). They'll show you how a miata is supposed to be driven.

One last thing. Just keep pressing on and don't worry so much about lap times. You'll improve more when your not looking at time sheets. Find someone who is quicker than you are and work on chasing them down. Then move onto the next faster driver. Repeat until everyone is behind you :burnrubr:

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Thanks for typing MY response for me! I think the answer is a half second longer on the throttle, a half second quicker off the brakes, less "transition" time between. But still smooth, smooth, smooth...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2K Miata

It seems to me that you might just need to have a rabbit to chase.

Or have an instructor (one who knows Miatas real well) go out with you and show you the limits of your car.

I learn that I was coasting too much into and thru a few corners. Sometimes you can make up more time by not braking too early and getting back on the throttle sooner.

One last thing. Just keep pressing on and don't worry so much about lap times. You'll improve more when your not looking at time sheets.

---

I don't like chasing people down becuase I rarely get to run with experienced drivers.

I am going to try to snag the spec miata driving instructor this weekend. If not, I'm going solo. :confused:

I can't even grow a beard...how do you expect me to brake later...lol. I know, I'm working on the confidence factor.

I don't really know "how soon" to track out. I find that I either just hold wheel position until It gets on the curb, or essentially I start making one steering input to the outside curb, then another to straighten it. I need to start gradually unwinding the wheel, rather than unwind in one step (e.g. linear vs. quadratic)...right? I think my current approach is all wrong though, and I'm essentially drifting all 4 out to the curb, when I could be steering it out there. Please provide some advice on this.

How do I know I'm faster without lap times? It seems to me like the slower I feel, the faster I am.

My fastest session yet happened on my second track day with the 15" stock boat ancors, on hard ass kumho ecstas. I have the 14's now with Azenis, so I thought that would be faster. They sure feel faster.

I want to feel like a big-boy, and order up some r-compounds. ::MrT::

I just reviewed some sections on the tape where you were in front of me. Instead of me trying to explain in a long paragraph, I'll just call you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnwag

I just reviewed some sections on the tape where you were in front of me. Instead of me trying to explain in a long paragraph, I'll just call you.

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Go to the tape!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

I want to feel like a big-boy, and order up some r-compounds. ::MrT::

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If you take any advice from all of this, take this.

Stay away from R-compounds for now. They'll just mask a whole lot of problems while your learning. They only promote bad habits because they have so much grip.

Sure you'll knock a couple seconds off your lap times right away but they will just mask bad technique. There is no beer-mug-trophy at the end of the day for being one second faster at a HPDE.

Learning with tires like Azenis teaches you so much more because they reach their limits sooner, giving you an opportunity to feel what the car does at extreme slip angles. Move to R-compounds when you've learn all you can from Azenis and you've consistantly match laptimes within a few 10ths of a second.

Again the best thing you can do is get a "good" Spec Miata instructor to take your car out with you. They'll show you the potential of your car and they'll open your eyes up dramatically. Having a guy who drives something else (like a high HP car) is not going to help you as much. Miata's are momentum cars and they like to be driving in a specific style to be fast. Watch a guy like Keith Verges at MSR (for the corner that you can stay with him) and you'll learn a ton.

But this is just my $0.02 worth. What do I know?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2K Miata

If you take any advice from all of this, take this.

Stay away from R-compounds for now.
Again the best thing you can do is get a "good" Spec Miata instructor to take your car out with you. They'll show you the potential of your car and they'll open your eyes up dramatically. Having a guy who drives something else (like a high HP car) is not going to help you as much. Miata's are momentum cars and they like to be driving in a specific style to be fast. Watch a guy like Keith Verges at MSR (for the corner that you can stay with him) and you'll learn a ton.

But this is just my $0.02 worth. What do I know?

---

I'm not buying r-compounds any time soon. I have at least one set of Azenis to burn up first, and I'll probably go through one more set before I move up to the adult class. I'm learning here, and I need the "but you're on r-compounds" argument to save some dignity...until I can get home and cry into my pillow.

That's the crappy part about running at Hallett, they don't have many instructors with a miata persuasion. I read back through Danny Sullivan's book over the last few days in an attempt to fill in the gaps. I'd like to get a cam to tape a few laps, but that's not going to happen.

I realized through reading last night that I'm kinda overdriving. Unlike most overdriving, I'm sliding the car more than I have to by using even steering inputs, not progressive. At least, that's my assessment. I think I'll learn alot in a few slow sessions this weekend working on technique.


Anyone have good track vids where I can see some appropriate steering habits?
Thanks for all the help.

R-compounds suck...


your car to the ground. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miataspeedracer

R-compounds suck...


your car to the ground. :)

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http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/200...m1_300_400.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

I need to shave some time off my laps times so one day I can sit at the adult table this xmas. My 1:44's are hallett are shamefull.

Did fatter sway bars actually reduce your lap times? I'm happy with f/r bias in pretty much any condition right now (because I'm green and don't know any better), but instructors seem to think its "well balanced" or "easy to drive."

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The Miata has pretty good suspension geometry - and so long as the tires are planted and pretty much perpendicular to the pavement, body roll really doesn't matter. I ran GC 375/250 with stock front sway and no rear sway last year at Hallett and got into the 1:42s with stock power and crappy Yok ES-100s. I'm a track newb also, so I'm sure there's more time to be had.

My instructor told he he thought I was getting "pretty much all of it", but watching Trackdog's and 2KMiata's video, I've seen places I could pick up some time - if I can find the line from the car, of course.

Mods are fun, of course, and I've added an NB front sway and re-installed the OEM rear sway - but I don't expect it to have a significant impact on lap times. I bet I can improve more through better technique...

All of which is to say that in this newb's opinion, you can add sways and tires if you want- but I'd venture to say that especially with turbo power, your springs, and azenis - you should be able to drop 3 or 4 seconds (at least) by improving the "nut behind the wheel", as it were. :burnrubr:
Good Luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CraiginTX

The Miata has pretty good suspension geometry - and so long as the tires are planted and pretty much perpendicular to the pavement, body roll really doesn't matter. I ran GC 375/250 with stock front sway and no rear sway last year at Hallett and got into the 1:42s with stock power and crappy Yok ES-100s. I'm a track newb also, so I'm sure there's more time to be had.

But I'd venture to say that especially with turbo power, your springs, and azenis - you should be able to drop 3 or 4 seconds (at least) by improving the "nut behind the wheel", as it were. :burnrubr:
Good Luck!

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Craig, I'm glad you posted considering that you and I were novices last year at Hallett. Your car sounds as if it has very close, if not almost exactly the same set up as Trey's car.

Trey, at Hallett last year, I had an intake, ebay header, pulley and my FM exhaust, power wise. Suspension wise, I had the Flex's and the RB bars. I was running Azenis as my tires. My best lap times were in the 1:39's, but I would say that my most consistent time was 1:40. Craig's car and his respectable driving ability are a great example that 2 seconds is to be had.
So......though I haven't ran Hallett CCW since last year, I know that I've increased my lap times and driver skill significantly through more, you guessed it, SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME.

Also, trey doesn't have his turbo installed, yet

Hopefully something will come together this weekend, and I'll get into a better mood because of it.

Where can I see some of this video everyone is talking about, i have terrible luck finding good miata track video to watch.
I would like to see some video of Gary racing.

btw I use mine for street use and like my FM's front and rear....just have not found a tire set-up I like to date. all i have tried suck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billy Blaze

I would like to see some video of Gary racing.

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Gary setting top time of day at Hallet.

And here is someone in front of Gary. Don't blink... ohhh... you blinked. now he is behind Gary.

And here he goes by the same guy for a second time.

Awesome!, Thanks Titus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

I need to shave some time off my laps times so one day I can sit at the adult table this xmas. My 1:44's are hallett are shamefull.

Did fatter sway bars actually reduce your lap times? I'm happy with f/r bias in pretty much any condition right now (because I'm green and don't know any better), but instructors seem to think its "well balanced" or "easy to drive."

I'm also still really afraid to "track it out in on the curb" before I enter the corner, instead I'm conservative and point the car out to the curbs on exit, after apex.

:burnrubr:

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A few months ago, Flyin Miata sent out a free issue of grassroots motorsports to all of their customers from the last few 2 years or so. In that issue (june '07) was a sway bar test. They tested a Saab 9-2X (subaru wrx with different body) at Ocala Gran Prix. The result after changing the tires was a 1 second decrease in lap times. Then after changing the sway bars another second was taken off of their lap times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnwag

A few months ago, Flyin Miata sent out a free issue of grassroots motorsports to all of their customers from the last few 2 years or so. In that issue (june '07) was a sway bar test. They tested a Saab 9-2X (subaru wrx with different body) at Ocala Gran Prix. The result after changing the tires was a 1 second decrease in lap times. Then after changing the sway bars another second was taken off of their lap times.

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I do have mad ass body roll:
http://i18.tinypic.com/52vhfte.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

I'm not buying r-compounds any time soon. I have at least one set of Azenis to burn up first, and I'll probably go through one more set before I move up to the adult class. I'm learning here, and I need the "but you're on r-compounds" argument to save some dignity...until I can get home and cry into my pillow.

That's the crappy part about running at Hallett, they don't have many instructors with a miata persuasion. I read back through Danny Sullivan's book over the last few days in an attempt to fill in the gaps. I'd like to get a cam to tape a few laps, but that's not going to happen.

I realized through reading last night that I'm kinda overdriving. Unlike most overdriving, I'm sliding the car more than I have to by using even steering inputs, not progressive. At least, that's my assessment. I think I'll learn alot in a few slow sessions this weekend working on technique.


Anyone have good track vids where I can see some appropriate steering habits?
Thanks for all the help.

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Next time you go to Hallett, ask Connie to see if she can get Kristen Treagor to instruct you for a session, she usually kicks butt in their SM series. Or if I'm there I'll be glad to be an instructor! Not as good of instructor as she would be but they've asked me to help instruct the HST classes before so I'm not too bad!

As mentioned by several already, riding shotgun with someone who is good in a Miata will do wonders for your laptimes. Riding with Keith Verges several yrs ago was the best driving instruction I've had; he could explain it all day but actually riding with him and experiencing it does so much more.

And don't be afraid of the curbing, if you're going as fast as you should be, you should tag the curb at just about every corner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icepenguin66

Next time you go to Hallett, ask Connie to see if she can get Kristen Treagor to instruct you for a session, she usually kicks butt in their SM series. Or if I'm there I'll be glad to be an instructor! Not as good of instructor as she would be but they've asked me to help instruct the HST classes before so I'm not too bad!

As mentioned by several already, riding shotgun with someone who is good in a Miata will do wonders for your laptimes. Riding with Keith Verges several yrs ago was the best driving instruction I've had; he could explain it all day but actually riding with him and experiencing it does so much more.

And don't be afraid of the curbing, if you're going as fast as you should be, you should tag the curb at just about every corner.

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I ran a session with Kristen, and she told me to use the curbs...lol. She didn't really have anything bad to say, so I'm kinda lost on what to do next...aside from wait for more instruction next month.

I don't see how the hell I can get 3 seconds faster. I had fun yesterday, but now I'm frustrated again. :confused:


My seat is bolted to the floor, so I can't really let the instructor drive unless they are my size.

holy shit!!! I should have done this from the start. I have understeer now, but need to tighten the rear. I wanted to from the start, but I couldn't get the links into the rear hole on the sway bar.

Thanks for the advice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

holy shit!!! I should have done this from the start. I have understeer now, but need to tighten the rear. I wanted to from the start, but I couldn't get the links into the rear hole on the sway bar.

Thanks for the advice

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Told Ya!!! Put the rear on the softer setting and the front at full stiff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnwag

Told Ya!!! Put the rear on the softer setting and the front at full stiff.

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there is only 1 setting in the front, and the car is plowing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

there is only 1 setting in the front, and the car is plowing.

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Is the rear on full soft?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titus

Is the rear on full soft?

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there are only 2 holes, so yes.

Well, if you can't adjust the front, the rear is on full soft, and you are plowing, you might try the rear bar at the stiff setting, but there are other options.

Here is some good info I found when I was trying different things:

Steady state understeer (All turns or low-speed turns only)-

• If front tire temps are optimum and rears are low, stiffen rear antiroll bar; if front temps are too hot, soften front (most likely).
• If front tire pressures are optimum, decrease rear tire pressure. Increase if chunking occurs.
• Improper front camber.
• Too much body roll at front, causing excessive camber change.

Steady state understeer (High-speed turns only)-

• If front tire temps are OK, increase front downforce.
• If front tire temps are too hot, reduce rear downforce.

Corner entry understeer-

• Front shocks are too soft in bump resistance.
• Too much front toe-in; use a small amount of front toe-out.

Corner exit understeer-

• Rear shocks are too soft in bump.
• Front shocks are too stiff in rebound.

Thanks. This is why I stated that I needed to use the stiff setting...I'm not going to jack with alignment.

Do I have to bend the little tabs on the control arm to get the links connected?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titus

Well, if you can't adjust the front, the rear is on full soft, and you are plowing, you might try the rear bar at the stiff setting, but there are other options.

Here is some good info I found when I was trying different things:

Steady state understeer (All turns or low-speed turns only)-

• If front tire temps are optimum and rears are low, stiffen rear antiroll bar; if front temps are too hot, soften front (most likely).
• If front tire pressures are optimum, decrease rear tire pressure. Increase if chunking occurs.
• Improper front camber.
• Too much body roll at front, causing excessive camber change.

Steady state understeer (High-speed turns only)-

• If front tire temps are OK, increase front downforce.
• If front tire temps are too hot, reduce rear downforce.

Corner entry understeer-

• Front shocks are too soft in bump resistance.
• Too much front toe-in; use a small amount of front toe-out.

Corner exit understeer-

• Rear shocks are too soft in bump.
• Front shocks are too stiff in rebound.

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I agree, put the rear bar on full stiff and realign the car with some front toe out. Also stiffen your rear shocks a bit if you can, should make it a bit looser. I have the front bar at full soft and factory rear bar and I can still get the car to rotate at will.

I ended up running soft in the rear, and didn't need any adjustment. I have a little lift-off oversteer, and the car is more easily steered with the throttle now coming out of 2, 4, and 9. I ran a 1:40.943 on my best lap, so that's a full second improvement on a track which had 8" or rain last night. It was super slick all day, but my lap times progressively decreased. I wonder much my 185mm wide Azenis are affecting lap times over 205's?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr brg

I ended up running soft in the rear, and didn't need any adjustment. I have a little lift-off oversteer, and the car is more easily steered with the throttle now coming out of 2, 4, and 9. I ran a 1:40.943 on my best lap, so that's a full second improvement on a track which had 8" or rain last night. It was super slick all day, but my lap times progressively decreased. I wonder much my 185mm wide Azenis are affecting lap times over 205's?

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Falken doesn't offer a 185mm wide Azenis. The smallest size available is a 195/60/14. If you have a 185mm tire with a "flaken" logo, they might be knock offs. ;):D

Congrats on the time. Now get some wider frikkin' wheels and tires already. Geez.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnwag

Falken doesn't offer a 185mm wide Azenis. The smallest size available is a 195/60/14. If you have a 185mm tire with a "flaken" logo, they might be knock offs. ;):D

Congrats on the time. Now get some wider frikkin' wheels and tires already. Geez.

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oops, yeah, 195. I have another set of 15" NB wheels to pick up...but I'm going to burn up what's left of these azenis and see if I want to jump on the r-compounds or not.

I think I can still get faster out there. I'm working on #6 and #10 particularly. I played the trial and error game on those 2 corners with entry speed, trail braking (and staying on the track), where to accelerate.

I also learned that #4 needed to be taken wider, tighten harder, earlier, and then I can get on #5 so much harder. I was exiting #5 at 76mph...I don't get the car over 80mph anywhere else on the track, so I'm very happy with that.

I think with more rubber on the track, and working on #6 and #10 I can cut .8 off and get into a 1:39. Actually, I can't think of a better way to finish off my stay in Oklahoma than clicking off a 1:39.