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Ok... a few questions from a newb.
1) Can anyone compare and contrast the above orgs for me?
Also I am wanting to get a rollbar and noticed that the Sport (Hard Dog) or Maxx (Boss Frog) are not approved by SCCA Solo 1.
2) What is the difference between SCCA Solo 1 and Solo 2?
My car will be used 99% for street and some autocross and track. I am 6'0" so the extra headroom of the sport bars are appealing.
I know Apex will pretty much allow any bar... how is the two above groups with these bars?
I think SCCA is much better organized and run in the short time I've run with both clubs. ER tends to run a lot at Pennington which turns into 1 car on course and a very long day. I also don't like the fact that you have to pay extra to get 2 more Rapide Pax runs when street tire class people are pretty much screwed with no index to compensate.
That being said I will run very few ER events this season and probably a full SCCA schedule. I think Solo 1 is road racing/runoffs and Solo 2 is autocross, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I think a rollbar is acceptable provided you use the correct restraints, I don't know if it will change your classing. If you're mostly autocrossing with little track time I would just skip the bar. The chances of rolling a Miata are slim to none at autocross.
Do both!
Solo 1 no longer exist. It is now just Solo (Solo 2)
A bar is not required for SCCA Solo or ER. Really on needed for track days. Some track groups will allow you to run without it in the beginner groups. It will stiffen the car giving it better handling.
I run both SCCA and ER. Seat time is important.
Neither of those 2 orgs are the poster child for seat time IMO, but you can't beat the competition factor! You'll get 4 runs (sometimes only 3) per event.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
S2K will get you 8 runs on a longer course (always at Mineral Wells).
Do you know if the NTS2K Group requires a rollbar?Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
Mineral Wells is attractive because of the higher speeds although it is a haul from Irving.
We do not require one, I don't know of any autocross clubs around here that require one at all. Also check out Lone Star BMWCCA for 8 run seat time on long road course type setups and PCA school for tons of practice runs and seat time for about 40 bucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by XM_Rocks
:cat:Quote:
Originally Posted by XM_Rocks
You think it's a long way from Irving, you should live in Murphy. :wink:
Yes I am spoiled with a short commute... our house is ~15 minutes door to door from my work.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
When I lived in an apartment my commute was a a staggering 5 minutes. :D
Bummer this year is the gaps between the events March (8th & 9th) then you wait til June (7th & 8th) then September (13th & 14th).... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
But S2K is always a good time! ::Banana::
Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
I dont know about the Sat/Sunday thing... I am hesitant to sacrifice the whole weekend.
I guess there will probably be a few folks that split a hotel 20 ways and party like a rockstar in Mineral Wells on Sat night.
You don't have to commit to go both days. You can sign up for one or the other when the time comes. I agree with POS...S2K events are going to be your best bang for the buck!Quote:
Originally Posted by XM_Rocks
You haven't spent much time in Mineral Wells, have you? :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by XM_Rocks
Import the party!Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
Actual Mineral Wells party footage - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esl2NNOtHQE
::Clown::
LOL... its all in the eye of the beholder.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
These days a Saturday night party for my wife and I is dinner at Lubys at 5:30pm and Blockbuster if we are feeling crazy. ;)
Wait a minute, If you do the Rapid Pax with ER you get 6 runs. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
Fixed :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
What are you talking about??? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
The ER payout schedule on RP for 50+ entrants adds up to $300 dollars. Everyone pays in $10 to run RP, times 50 entrants=$500. Where does the other $200 go each event I wonder? I'm sure they can't cover the cost of pennington rental/gear with the first $25 from 50-75 people right?Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
Just a subtle observation I made, someone tell me otherwise if there's a better explanation.
Close... but I think it's more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbkNDc_FoiUQuote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
::Shocked:
So the only explanation you came up with is that Gerry must use the money to buy tires? The club has plenty of other uses for that money and its helps the organization stay in the black. I do not know how open their books are, but you might want to check it out before making that kind of accusation. That one was pretty harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
I've heard rumors that there is no longer even a board of directors to vote on stuff etc. I may very well look into some financials, it just didn't seem like a very non profit type of organization to me. It would make more sense to charge an entry fee that covered costs and then give back the money that everyone put into the pool for RP to the winners. I have no problem giving my money to people that are faster to me but to have it disapper is just strange. I apologize if I offended you guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
From what I've heard as of the 08 season SCCA's price is going up and you HAVE to be a member. On top of that you get 4 runs with SCCA and 6 with ER.
CosmosMpower- Obviously you have some kind of chip on your shoulder against ER, but please don't start wild rumors, and flame wars. This (the DFW autox) is a small community and what you're doing is very destructive. It would probably be better for everyone if you just avoided coming to ER events if you just going to whine about everything you don't like.
Yes ER has a BOD that votes on EVERYTHING. I have no idea where you could have possibly got that from.
Yes you're not likely to win any rapid pax money if you're car isn't well prepped, that goes for more than just being on street tires. There is NO way to make everything fair for everyone. The street tire class averages about 4-8 people. Do you honestly think it would be a good idea to have a separate pax payout for those 5 people?
No, no one on the ER board is taking the PAX money (or any money). And I'm not sure what point you're making that more PAX money is paid in than paid out? No one ever said that 100% of rapid PAX money gets paid back to entrants. Both ER and SCCA (and most autocross clubs in the country) have had very low turnout the past year or two. No one is doing well financially and many clubs are struggling which is why you're likely to see SCCA raise their entry fee this year.
Has anyone else heard this? First time for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
If you think street tire isn't a legit class for competition and attendence you must be crazy. Go look at your end of year point results, the largest stock classes range in the 10-12 entry for the year. Street tire ended up with over THIRTY people. You'll find Tire being one of the largest classes for SCCA and just about every single club in the area. SCCA even added a tire class for their divisionals this year. Most of the people that come out for tire end up running Rapide Pax and contributing to the pool. I have also personally seen Terranova pocket money going down the list for Rapide Pax (not that he shouldn't if he wins as a competitor) but I've seen it happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
Hell forget stock tire class only 3 people out of the top 20 in year end rapide pax were on street tires and some of them were national ST competitors, maybe they weren't prepped well enough. I didn't say that tire class people should get their own pool but at least come up with some kind of index system so they have a relative chance to place somewhere. I don't know why you keep ragging on SCCA, it's not like they were more costly to run than ER and are now hiking their prices up even more, just the opposite.
There is a link on the SCCA website about the membership stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
The link - http://autocross.com/tr/whywkendmem.pdf
First off I want to agree that there's no way it will ever be fair for everyone. Dang Madarash and his weak PAX! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
You say that the street tire class averages 4-8 people, so does the ladies Rapide PAX...
Not trying to start a fight here, but you brought it up.
That being said, I really enjoy ER and haven't had a problem putting up the $10 for the extra Rapide PAX runs with my horrible CSP PAX (in the past) and underprepared car. It's just a big bonus to me now when I run PAX in the B-stock car.
Then maybe you should look at it like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
- $25 entry fee = 4 runs
- $10 Rapide Pax fee = 2 extra runs
When you look at it this way, you're really paying for the extra runs. The chance to win money is just a bonus.
Do you honestly think that Gerry just pockets that extra money and buys tires with it? Where else should he put it while he's standing up there announcing the winners? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
I've been autocrossing with Equipe Rapide and the SCCA for the last decade. In that time Gerry Terranova has been one of the most consistent and selfless ambassadors for the sport that I've met. Whether it's running local events, organizing Pro Solos and National Tours, or hosting Evolution schools, Gerry is there. He's probably done more to promote this sport in this area of the country than everyone else on this board combined.
I like you Cosmos, but in this case you really don't have a clue what you're talking about. In the future I’d suggest that you think for a second before you make highly inflammatory remarks about someone you don’t really know.
Fair enough, I'll publicly apologize to Gerry, my comment about him was more or less an offhand joke initially. Am I right to say that ER is a 100% not for profit organization and that any extra revenue goes 100% straight back for club use? That's all I wanted to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
When did I say it was not a legit class?Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
At first glance that would seem to be a good point, but take a closer look at the numbers. There are 33 entrants at the end of year points for ER, however 25 of those came to two events or less, 4 came to 3-4 events, and only 3 people came to more than 4 events. Tire class is the catch all for most every non-novice who comes to one event in a year which makes it look a lot bigger than it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Gerry is kind enough to pick up money for a few people who have to leave early.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Do you really honestly think it's fair to come up with another system for the 5 people?Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
When was I 'ragging' on SCCA? I was initially responding the OP's question about the differences between SCCA and ER.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Good point, the Ladies rapid PAX has always been meant to encourage more women to participate in the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
Ok so, just because some people only come to 1-3 events during a year doesn't mean they should have a shot to compete the times they are there? Rapide pax isn't even an end of season championship point payout anyways so what does that matter? I guess those people that come out to race every once in a while should pay their entry fees in monopoly money and we'll call it square?Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
No one is asking for a seperate pool. You already have an index for tire class, according to you since you don't have so many repeat attendees why dont' you just throw everyone in with stock class and scrap tire class alltogether? Since you already came up with a tire index how much extra trouble is it to come up with a RP index for tire? You did it for 5 women as pointed out. I guess I could come to the conclusion that you want to have more women participate but not new people in general or people that prefer to race on street tires due to $ constraints or the inability to transport R comps? The average attendance for tire class was 7 people per event, that's easily on par with any stock class that runs.
And you still didn't answer my question; Is ER is truly a not for profit organization with all funds being contributed back to the club and it's members? It's not a secret is it?
Both SCCA and ER have monthly board meeting that EVERYONE.......even non-members can attend. Both have actual board members that DO vote on even the smallest issues.
At the board meetings, everyone is given a print out of the financials (monthly for ER and usually quarterly for SCCA). I have been to every SCCA meeting in the last year and started going to the ER meetings in December. From what I can tell, all of the financials are above-board and accurate.
ER is a non-profit and therefore can only keep so much of what it takes in.......both clubs spend quite a bit of money on keeping the timing equipment, radios, etc.... up and running. It seems to be important to both clubs that equipment work and work well at each event......sometimes it does.......sometimes it doesn't. :punchout:
Besides site rental, keeping the equipment running seems to be the highest expendature for both clubs.
As far as ER Rapide PAX.........in 2007, the average number of entries in men's RP was 55 (the one rain event hurt the numbers) so the average the club takes in from the men is $550. Each event with more than 50 entries pays out $300. If you're not there to collect your $$$ or designate someone to get it for you, it goes back to the club.....it's in the rules. So yes, Gerry puts it in his pocket while he's announcing the winners and then all the funds go to to club treasurer for deposit.
In 2007, the average number in women's RP was 4.......with less than 9 entries, the pay out is to 3rd place so that's $105 to WRP when we only pay in an average of $40. Personally, I appreciate that ER pays out the same to WRP as to men's.....they don't have to but it is very much appreciated among the women that they do.
So all together, we're talking about the club paying out $405 of the $590.....so the club keeps $185 or ~30% if everyone collects their money.
When you consider that the club still gives out trophies at each event plus VERY nice trophies at the end of the year plus insurance, plus site rental, plus upkeep on the trailer, keeping the equipment up and running, web site, newsletter, etc..... ER is doing so on a shoe-string budget.
If you have a gripe or want something changed at ER or SCCA......send any of the ER or SCCA board members an email and tell them (their email addresses are on each club's web site)........all the board asks is that if you have a problem, then try to come up with a workable, thought-out solution and they WILL look it over and discuss it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotgirl
Thanks for typing all of that out, that's exactly the information I was looking for. I think autocross is a great local/community sport/hobby and personally think it should be run as such, not a business. I had some doubts and am glad you cleared it up with factual information.
Actually, there is an "end of season" Rapide Pax Championship and it DOES pay out to third place for both men and women.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
http://autocross.com/er/2007_Pax_Points.pdf
I got a $75 gift certificate to Discount Tire for coming in 2nd in Women's RP.
Fair enough, congrats! I'm sure it helps with those big rear tires on that vetteQuote:
Originally Posted by Rotgirl
Barely covers the taxes. :D
The better explanation is you have no earthly idea what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmosMpower
Okay, I think everyone's questions have been answered. Before this gets any uglier, I'm throwing the ::lock::. Thanks for playing!