'99 LP to '99 Sport Conversion... thoughts?

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02-26-2004, 03:57 PM
Kestrel

'99 LP to '99 Sport Conversion... thoughts?
altiain posted this in another thread. (and I hijacked it :shock: :P ). Anyway, it prompted me to think about what it would take to do a conversion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

the Sport Package in 1999 officially added the following to the car:

Torsen limited-slip differential
15"x6" alloy wheels
Bilstein high-pressure gas-charged shock absorbers
Stiffer springs (front & rear)
Stiffer rear swaybar
Preload adjustable shock tower brace
Front airdam
Rear spoiler

The Torsen and the wheels were also standard on the LS. The tupperware could be added at the dealer.
So for my "LP to Sport Package Conversion", I'd have to:
- - Add sport springs
  - Add sport (larger) rear swaybar
  - Add preload adjustable shock tower brace
  - Add rear spoiler
My car came with the Torsen, wheels and front airdam, and the front swaybar and shocks are "free" (in other words, they can be anything you want. Then I'd have to remove:
- - Power windows
  - Power locks
  - Cruise control
  - Leather interior (I'd have to go to those despicable cloth seats :shock: :D )
  - Windscreen brace right behind my seats
  - Bose Stereo
  - Tan interior parts and the tan top
My Sport Package Conversion is now complete. :cheers:
****************

Well, I've been running around with my '99 Sport for a couple of months (years), and I've noticed some cool things that I'd like to add to my car. They don't enhance my performance (speed, quickness, stiffness, handling, etc), so I think they'll all be OK under the "Comfort and Convenience" clause of allowable modifications.
- - I like the look of the tan top and interior plastic parts, so I think I'll find some of those on an old junker and install them. They don't do anything to the car performance-wise, so I should be OK. Besides, I don't think interior or top color is "protest-able".
  - I really prefer power locks (they aren't the remote kind). I think I'll add those under the "comfort and convenience clause as well... OK?
  - I'm a real audiophile, and I love that Bose stereo system :wink: that came with some Miatas... I think with the LP? Anyway, since it doesn't affect my performance, I think I'll dig up one of those superior units and put it in my Sport Package Conversion car as well.
  - I take a lot of long trips in my Miata. It won't enhance my car's top speed, 0-60 times, or nimbleness, so I'm guessing that I could add cruise control under the C&C clause as well.
  - Power windows... I really hate having to reach over and manually crank my passenger window. I know that the power windows are supposed to actually be lighter than the manual ones, so I can see where someone might have an issue with those. Hummm... let's see... maybe I could put in power windows, and then add a little weight somewhere else in the car to compensate. Unless, of course, the weight difference in insignificant, and the SEB would agree that there would be more weight variance in the driver than in that small change. So perhaps that would fly under the C&C radar as well? And besides, I believe I've seen some other '99 Sport owners put in power windows...
So you see, once I do a "complete Sport Package conversion" and add back all the stuff allowable under the Comfort & Convenience rule, I'm basically back to this:
- * '99 LP
  + Sport Springs
  + Sport Rear Swaybar
  + Sport Shock Tower Brace
  + Sport Rear Spoiler (could that be removed under C&C?)
  - Windscreen rear deck brace (which would be replaced by a nice Hard Dog Sport Bar :D )
Everything else -- and it's all non-performance enhancing stuff -- should be OK under the C&C clause. Right?

Comments? Thoughts? Hey, I'd really like to hear (read) your opinions on this. I'm pretty serious about trying this after this season...

Kestrel
02-26-2004, 04:00 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

But, why? With the sport springs, aren't you rather limited in aftermarket/adjustable shock choices? Apart from the strut tower brace, I don't see anything that would be of benefit to the "sport conversion" you describe. The stiffer rear bar would allow you to set the front bar to a stiffer setting without adding push, but it might also contribute to an early separation of the swaybar mounts...

Good question. The springs will fit over the KYB AGX's I currently use, and I know they'll fit over Koni adjustables as well. So there's not much of a limitation as far as that goes. The tower brace would certainly calm the cowl shake I have (it isn't bad at all, but every little bit helps), and the stiffer rear bar would do exactly what you described.

So what I'm saying is that the Sport Package gives you a slight -- very slight -- edge. But I was in 4th place this past weekend by a slight -- very slight -- margin. :wink: I'm not saying that I'd have won if I had the sport springs/rear bar/tower brace... but I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have hurt. And if it's really no big deal, then nobody should be worried about it if an 'LP owner just slapped on those components, right?
02-26-2004, 04:04 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I know that the power windows are supposed to actually be lighter than the manual ones, so I can see where someone might have an issue with those.

The power windows are NOT any lighter than the manual windows. :roll:

I'm so freakin' tired of seeing that rumor bandied about. I converted my '99 Sport to power windows, and I guarantee you that what I pulled out of the door weighed a good deal less (1-2 pounds per side) than what I put in.

Let's see... I removed a manual crank mechanism and a couple of cables. I added a power window regulator and an electric motor to each side. Which do you think would be heavier? Trust me, the manual crank mechanism ain't made out of depleted uranium - it's quite a bit lighter than the power window motors.

Iain
(Who will be bringing one of his manual window guts to the National Tour, in case someone wants to lose $50 protesting me to find out for sure) :roll:
02-26-2004, 04:08 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

I know that the power windows are supposed to actually be lighter than the manual ones, so I can see where someone might have an issue with those.

The power windows are NOT any lighter than the manual windows. :roll:

I'm so freakin' tired of seeing that rumor bandied about. I converted my '99 Sport to power windows, and I guarantee you that what I pulled out of the door weighed a good deal less (1-2 pounds per side) than what I put in.

Let's see... I removed a manual crank mechanism and a couple of cables. I added a power window regulator and an electric motor to each side. Which do you think would be heavier? Trust me, the manual crank mechanism ain't made out of depleted uranium - it's quite a bit lighter than the power window motors.

Iain
(Who will be bringing one of his manual window guts to the National Tour, in case someone wants to lose $50 protesting me to find out for sure) :roll:

Thanks for the clarification... I was just repeating what I'd been told. I'm very glad that little "urban myth" is just that! It never made any sense to me anyway.

So now I have even less reason to worry about being protested with my '99 LP to '99 Sport conversion... and "add back" of some C&C things (that would make the car look suspiciously like a '99 LP with the Sport Package bits on it :wink: ).

And from now on, I promise to be as vocal as altiain in trying to dispell the myth: power windows are NOT any lighter than the manual windows. :salut:
02-26-2004, 04:10 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

But, why? With the sport springs, aren't you rather limited in aftermarket/adjustable shock choices? Apart from the strut tower brace, I don't see anything that would be of benefit to the "sport conversion" you describe. The stiffer rear bar would allow you to set the front bar to a stiffer setting without adding push, but it might also contribute to an early separation of the swaybar mounts...

The rear swaybar mounts are not prone to failure, so adding the stiffer rear Sport bar will not potentially increase your chances of having a mount failure, unless you use the slightly larger rear bar to justify running more front bar. The front mounts are the only ones prone to fail.

As for shocks, I don't know if the acutal springs are any different, but I recall there being some problems on the pointy board with SPort Package owners trying to use AGX shocks. Don't quote me on that, but do some research instead. It was one of the reasons I chose to buy used Konis two years ago instead of new AGXs for my car... although it turns out I prefer the OEM Bilsteins to Konis anyway, but that's another story.

Iain
02-26-2004, 04:12 PM
POS Racing

There is this guy with the springs

What is the difference in spring rate for a sport vs. a LP (Lincoln Package) '99? :P
02-26-2004, 04:14 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

There is this guy with the springs

What is the difference in spring rate for a sport vs. a LP (Lincoln Package) '99? :P

Something like 10% stiffer in the front and 13% stiffer in the rear. Pretty modest increases, but definitely noticeable if you drive a Sport and non-Sport back-to-back.

Iain
02-26-2004, 04:17 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

There is this guy with the springs

What is the difference in spring rate for a sport vs. a LP (Lincoln Package) '99? :P

Yep, I've seriously considered talking to him... but I think he has another buyer. And besides, I don't want his sway bars. Now if he'd part with those springs for say... $40.00?... I just might take them off his hands. :king:
02-26-2004, 05:22 PM
joe.MIATA

KESTREL,
I have heard and seen of late that AGX's are compatible with the Sport springs. Someone on the pointy board was remarking that the FM folks were installing these items together without any issues- (this would warrant a phone call to FM for verification). This is what I originally wanted to do (before my conversion to Sport), but could not get this info- so I went with the bilsteins. By the way, the diff. between the standard suspension and the SPort is very noticable. I prefer the stiffer ride- even for everyday driving.

Let me know if you are interested...every day you wait could mean another loss!!! :wink:

Found this by Icehawk:

Quote:

The answer is that there is no difference other than the Sport has a higher spring rate so in *theory* it would be spec'd to a different shock. Of course we all know that the AGX can handle a wide range of spring rates so go ahead RD and hook yourself up. I have driven a RB Street spring and Sport shock setup and thought it was pretty nice myself. Not sure how much you really gain going to the AGX other than adjustability.

And this from Orthonormal:

Quote:

If the KYBs come with spring perches, I don't know why they wouldn't fit a sport suspension car the same as a regular suspension car.
02-26-2004, 06:05 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe.MIATA

Let me know if you are interested...every day you wait could mean another loss!!! :wink:

Kestrel's going to need more than just a new set of springs to stop that from happening... :P :wink:

Iain
02-26-2004, 06:05 PM
general default

Here are the part numbers for the front tower brace. Sorry I could not find the part number for the "light weight" power window motors :)

56-492 bracket
56-493 bracket
56-496A
56-494
56-499
56-49XB
56-49XA
The following parts take two each
99813-1250 bolt
99953-1200
99971-1200
99921-1200

To keep POS Racing happy here is some sway bar content.
Rear Bar
NC12-28-151 Hard-s bar
G113-28-156 times 2

Srings I guess you can find used. Bump stop looked to be the same.

Think that is the correct numbers. Some numbers are hard to read due to the microfish conversion.
Seem they want event results from me. I could not get the price quote.
02-26-2004, 08:16 PM
joe.MIATA

I am certainly happy to break up the set of items for sale.....

Please find attached an OEM STB:

link

Kestrel hasn't lifted a finger for his upgrade. Everybody is doing the work for him...
In research I have done previously, the factory STB (all parts) is about $400-450 from a dealer. I had Tailchasers' buddy, T. McGrab, 'offer' (read screw) me an OEM bar for $200. I bet he still has it.

A good resource for me has been the Mazda recyclers.

On another note: Am I mistaken, I don't believe that I need a rear spoiler to be stock 'legal.' Can somebody else confirm that? TIA
04-14-2004, 01:17 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe.MIATA

In research I have done previously, the factory STB (all parts) is about $400-450 from a dealer. I had Tailchasers' buddy, T. McGrab, 'offer' (read screw) me an OEM bar for $200. I bet he still has it.

A new, OEM STB is more like $550... I got a quote of $539 + shipping from Mazda South. :shock: But I found a clean used one for $150, and now have it in hand. 8)

So I think I have everything I need for my "complete" LP to Sport conversion -- I have the springs (thanks to joe.MIATA), the rear bar (thanks to calvin), and the STB. I'll bring all my stuff to a Tech Day sometime (probably after this season is over), and ask for some help getting all this stuff on. The biggest pain will be those springs:

- Install Sport Springs
- Install Rear Swaybar
- Install STB
- Remove Windblocker / Brace (replace with... gulp... rollbar?)

Then it's a matter of seeing who's going to be petty enough to protest my car's side skirts (from the Appearance Package that I didn't want anyway) and lack of rear spoiler (look, I promise to put an extra 1.5 lbs in the trunk if that'll make you happy...).
04-14-2004, 01:22 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Then it's a matter of seeing who's going to be petty enough to protest my car's ...

You talking to me! :twisted: :P
04-14-2004, 01:26 PM
sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Then it's a matter of seeing who's going to be petty enough to protest my car's ...

You talking to me! :twisted: :P

he said petty, not pretty... :flower:
04-14-2004, 01:28 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

You talking to me! :twisted: :P

You're not in my class (or rather, I'm not in your's...), so I wouldn't expect it from you.
04-14-2004, 01:30 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

You talking to me! :twisted: :P

You're not in my class (or rather, I'm not in your's...), so I wouldn't expect it from you.

I'm not in your class this year! But who knows what the future may bring! :wink:

What about the power steering? Didn't the "Sports" come without power steering? Can you add it as part as comfort & convenience??
04-14-2004, 01:37 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

I'm not in your class this year! But who knows what the future may bring! :wink:

You're right... I don't know what the future will bring. But I do know what your future SHOULD bring: an STS2 modified Black & Tan '92. If I had an NA, that's where I'd be going...
04-14-2004, 01:41 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

I'm not in your class this year! But who knows what the future may bring! :wink:

You're right... I don't know what the future will bring. But I do know what your future SHOULD bring: an STS2 modified Black & Tan '93. If I had an NA, that's where I'd be going...

Geez why would I buy a '93 when I have a perfectly good '92! :D
04-14-2004, 01:45 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Geez why would I buy a '93 when I have a perfectly good '92! :D

What are you talking about?

Doh! I know you have a '92... as in Black92C... sorry dude.
04-14-2004, 05:26 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

What about the power steering? Didn't the "Sports" come without power steering? Can you add it as part as comfort & convenience??

Sports were available without power steering, but they were also available with it, so he could have power or non-power steering and be legal. The only illegal thing to do would be to de-power the power rack, as the factory non-power rack has a different ratio.
04-15-2004, 07:39 AM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

The only illegal thing to do would be to de-power the power rack, as the factory non-power rack has a different ratio.

You mean like Manwhore has done? Excellent... He won't be protesting anything on my car now... :twisted:
04-15-2004, 03:30 PM
joe.MIATA

Quote:

A new, OEM STB is more like $550... I got a quote of $539 + shipping from Mazda South. But I found a clean used one for $150, and now have it in hand.

Kestrel,
Where did you find that STB? It has the adjustable section in it, right?
04-15-2004, 04:34 PM
Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe.MIATA

In research I have done previously, the factory STB (all parts) is about $400-450 from a dealer. I had Tailchasers' buddy, T. McGrab, 'offer' (read screw) me an OEM bar for $200. I bet he still has it.

Let's just say Tom doesn't have it anymore :wink: , and I got it for $150. For $150, I could have gotten a much nicer aftermarket bar, but in order to stay in Stock class, I had to have OEM. So it was either (1) buy new and pay $550 or so, (2) hope I could catch something on Miata.net or eBay pretty cheap, or (3) take the one that Tom had. All-in-all, I didn't think $150 was too bad, so I took the deal!

Right after I paid for the STB, I told him why I needed that STB (Stock Class LP to Sport conversion requires OEM bar, new bar costs $550)... I don't think he knew that, and I could tell he realized that he probably could have held out for more $$$. Funny how someone "in the business" could not know what he had.

Anyway, I talked to him some more -- about LSMC, autocross, etc. -- and he said he was interested in coming out to an Autocross sometime. Someone who is going to the LSMC meeting tomorrow night should take him some information about the next NTS2KOC autocross. Maybe if he tries it for himself and sees how much fun it is, the LSMC will start being a little more receptive to "performance related activities"! :D
04-15-2004, 05:50 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

The only illegal thing to do would be to de-power the power rack, as the factory non-power rack has a different ratio.

You mean like Manwhore has done? Excellent... He won't be protesting anything on my car now... :twisted:

Majik is already playing in CSP, so he won't be protesting you anyway. Although technically a de-powered rack ain't legal in SP either... :P
04-15-2004, 06:26 PM
joe.MIATA

Quote:

I don't think he knew that, and I could tell he realized that he probably could have held out for more $$$. Funny how someone "in the business" could not know what he had.

Good. It makes me :D