T/B fiasco-motor now fubar

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10-28-2008, 05:58 PM
cam76034

T/B fiasco-motor now fubar

So an "expert" on miatas changed out the belt on my 94. Sounded good since he'd come over to do it in my driveway and had done quite a few already.

I don't know what he did wrong, but at this point it only runs on cylinders 4, 1 & 2. There's spark to 3, but no combustion. Also, there's a ticking noise that wasn't there before, maybe lifter tick?

The only other thing I can throw out is when trying to start it up it seemed to kind of bind up for a moment.

Any ideas before I have to pull this thing up on a trailer and take it to Rogue?
10-28-2008, 07:08 PM
POS Racing

Why don't you have the "expert" fix the damn thing?
10-28-2008, 08:15 PM
black roadster

It wasn't me!

::eek02::
10-28-2008, 08:18 PM
trickyrix

Are you sure the "expert" wasn't an undercover operative from MT? ;)

Couple of thoughts...

1) POS might be on to something... did the "expert" leave his phone number for warranty questions? :rolleyes:

2) Maybe the #3 plug is wet/fouled - so you'd get spark from the wire to the plug, but nothing inside the head. You might pull the plugs and make sure they're clean and gapped properly. Are you sure it's the #3 plug? Does the motor lope like it's got a monster cam or fart and sputter like it's on 3 cylinders?

3) I wonder if the TB is off a tooth? That might explain the "binding up" when starting. Could also explain the rough-running motor.
10-28-2008, 09:20 PM
cone-cerned

^^That number 3 sounds like the first thing to check.
10-29-2008, 06:24 AM
Billy Blaze

Dude that sux, I hope you can get it worked out soon.
10-29-2008, 06:48 AM
sammm

Who was the 'expert' so no one else makes the same mistake?
10-29-2008, 07:00 AM
Mark52

I vote for #3. The fact that it starts and runs is a good sign. Find another expert and have him check everything out.
10-29-2008, 07:49 AM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickyrix

1) POS might be on to something... did the "expert" leave his phone number for warranty questions? :rolleyes:

Yea I'm sure you already paid the "expert" why not have him fix it correctly? Have you even talked to him about the car's issues??

I'd also be interested in knowing who this "expert" is!
10-29-2008, 09:01 AM
Sharpie

How many miles did you put on it since it was worked on? It could be something totally unrelated, but maybe not. ?
10-29-2008, 01:05 PM
cam76034

The binding sensation only happened the first time trying to start it after the belt change. I was turning the key and the motor just seemed to stop. It bugged me, but a miata is a non interference motor, right?

Tried new plug. The spark plug is firing, there seems to be plenty of compression, and the plug is wet with gas. But, it is definitely only running on 4, 1 and 2. Is it possible for one of the cams to be off to where it runs on those 3 only?

It hasn't moved out of the driveway since the "expert" disappeared. The "expert" is Richard Thompson of Fort Worth, and I wouldn't trust him to put air in my tires at this point.
10-29-2008, 01:19 PM
tailchaser

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam76034

The binding sensation only happened the first time trying to start it after the belt change. I was turning the key and the motor just seemed to stop. It bugged me, but a miata is a non interference motor, right?

Tried new plug. The spark plug is firing, there seems to be plenty of compression, and the plug is wet with gas. But, it is definitely only running on 4, 1 and 2. Is it possible for one of the cams to be off to where it runs on those 3 only?

It hasn't moved out of the driveway since the "expert" disappeared. The "expert" is Richard Thompson of Fort Worth, and I wouldn't trust him to put air in my tires at this point.

Rory Lives!!!! This guy, right?
10-29-2008, 01:44 PM
sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

Rory Lives!!!! This guy, right?

You mean Rory - "You guys are mean, I hate your car club and I'm forming my own" - Rory? :rolleyes:

bwahahahahahaha!!111!!1!! ::BaHump::
10-29-2008, 02:24 PM
cam76034

Fraid so.::Rant::
10-29-2008, 02:25 PM
boisking

FWIW, the last mis-aligned timing belt I had to fix (house call on a DIYer) was exactly as mentioned above. One cam was mis-aligned by one tooth. That time, the car (also) would idle (horribly), but I wouldn't have bet on it getting enough power to let out the clutch in gear and stay running.

Who "fixes" a car with out test driving it? I'd get him back over to re-align the belt, and make sure you can drive the car before he leaves again. Miata engines are not interference motors, so you don't have to worry about damage. The extra clicking will likely go away after the problem is fixed.
10-29-2008, 02:27 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam76034

Fraid so.::Rant::

Not that I want to be an ass, but wouldn't a post on a local Miata forum (like this one) to verify the qualification of a "Miata Expert" be something one would want to do prior to having your car serviced?

It is a non interference engine, but if it were mine it would be on a trailer headed to Miata Solutions....
10-29-2008, 02:58 PM
Ataim

It only takes about 6-8 bolts to pull off the valve cover. You will need to turn the motor over to Top Dead Center on #1 Then look at the marks on the cam and see it they line up correctly. I'm sure that someone has a picture that they can post on what it's supposed to look like.
10-29-2008, 02:58 PM
cam76034

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Not that I want to be an ass, but wouldn't a post on a local Miata forum (like this one) to verify the qualification of a "Miata Expert" be something one would want to do prior to having your car serviced?

It is a non interference engine, but if it were mine it would be on a trailer headed to Miata Solutions....

Ummm, yes you are right. The part about getting references anyway.;)
Hindsight tells me this should have been obvious. Oh well, another lesson learned.
10-29-2008, 03:00 PM
cam76034

Quote:

Originally Posted by boisking

FWIW, the last mis-aligned timing belt I had to fix (house call on a DIYer) was exactly as mentioned above. One cam was mis-aligned by one tooth. That time, the car (also) would idle (horribly), but I wouldn't have bet on it getting enough power to let out the clutch in gear and stay running.

Who "fixes" a car with out test driving it? I'd get him back over to re-align the belt, and make sure you can drive the car before he leaves again. Miata engines are not interference motors, so you don't have to worry about damage. The extra clicking will likely go away after the problem is fixed.

It hasn't left the driveway. He spent two days on it and then disappeared. Really a reliable upstanding guy.:rolleyes:
10-29-2008, 03:03 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam76034

It hasn't left the driveway. He spent two days on it and then disappeared. Really a reliable upstanding guy.:rolleyes:

Man that sucks..... Ya gotta wonder what else he may have screwed up was the water pump part of the service??
10-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Ataim

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam76034

It hasn't left the driveway. He spent two days on it and then disappeared. Really a reliable upstanding guy.:rolleyes:

Two days:confused: The second time I did one I changed the Waterpump, bearings and TB by myself in about 3 hours from opening the hood to closing it.
10-29-2008, 03:17 PM
Ataim

2 Attachment(s)

Picture
10-29-2008, 03:24 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ataim

I'm sure that someone has a picture that they can post on what it's supposed to look like.

Good stuff here - http://www.miata.net/garage/timingbelt.html

Hey Cam how did you find this expert??

http://www.rivercityroad.com/garage/pics/Belt_view.jpg
10-29-2008, 03:44 PM
trickyrix

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Hey Cam how did you find this expert??

You didn't pick up one of these day laborers, did ya?

http://keepstuff.homestead.com/DayLaborerContempt.jpg
10-29-2008, 03:55 PM
cam76034

Rub it in guys, I already beat myself up on this so much that there's nothing anybody can say that could bother me at this point. That long drive to Arkansas and back gives one plenty of time to think...and kick myself a few hundred times over.

I found him on dfwmiata when I bought some AC parts this summer. While talking miatas, I told him I had 2 that were due for TB change. He called me a few weeks ago and the rest is history. Unfortunately, I didn't know his.
10-29-2008, 03:59 PM
cam76034

Once again, how can it run on 4, 1 and 2 but not on 3? After running for just a minute, you can smell the unburned gas.

I'm guessing it would not be wise to drive it that way ie: Gas diluting the oil?
10-29-2008, 04:28 PM
trickyrix

I got nothin' on the #3 plug, but I wouldn't drive it like that. All that unburned fuel going out the exhaust can't be good for things like the cat.
10-29-2008, 06:28 PM
POS Racing

Ya sure you got the plugs in the correct order?
http://www.miata.net/garage/images/TBELT11.JPG
10-30-2008, 07:40 AM
MadMerv

The key to a proper timing belt replacement is the setting of the tensioner. If one doesn't follow the procedure (turning the crank 1 5/6 revolutions) the belt can easily jump a cog or two. It's simple to fix. Someone go help the poor guy...........
10-30-2008, 07:44 AM
cam76034

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Ya sure you got the plugs in the correct order?
http://www.miata.net/garage/images/TBELT11.JPG

Firing order double checked. If only it was that easy.:(
10-30-2008, 07:58 AM
sammm

Bad plug wire? Did you try swapping #3 and #4 wires and see if the problem follows?
10-30-2008, 09:30 AM
cam76034

Fairly new NGK wires with less than 5K on them, and the plug is firing.

Went ahead and removed the valve cover and upper TB cover. When at TDC, the E and I line up at approximately 12 o'clock, although the I isn't exactly at 12 o'clock. What really stands out is the amount of slop in the belt at that point between camshaft gears. It's supposed to be 3/8" but it is actually more like 3/4". Then, when rotating the crankshaft through a full cycle, it gets alternately really tight, then really sloppy again. It should be the same tension throughout shouldn't it?

However, there are 19 teeth between I and E as I recall reading on miata.net.

Guess I'll continue taking off the TB covers on down to where I can get at the tensioner and main crankshaft.
10-30-2008, 10:02 AM
POS Racing

Have you talked to Rogue yet? What else did you expert replace?
10-30-2008, 02:07 PM
cam76034

Well I just finished replacing the TB, made sure everything lined up. It still is missing on #3.::Censor::
10-30-2008, 02:17 PM
sammm

Try a different coil pack.
10-30-2008, 02:36 PM
channelmaniac

Timing and spark are controlled by:

Timing belt alignment, plugs, wires, coil pack, and the CAS (cam angle sensor)...

Double check that the cas is plugged in all the way, the coil packs are plugged in all the way... make sure a plug wire didn't break... the plug isn't fouled out or electrodes touching (which can happen if the plug is dropped!)....

AND

Check to make sure the wiring at the back of the head wasn't pinched/cut/shorted by the valve cover.
10-30-2008, 02:40 PM
cam76034

Possible, since the CAS wasn't disconnected while using the starter bump trick to break loose the crankshaft.
10-30-2008, 02:41 PM
cam76034

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammm

Try a different coil pack.

I thought about that, but if I pull the plug and ground it on the valve cover, it's shooting a pretty good spark. I'm getting fuel, I've got spark, just no combustion in the chamber.

So I'm thinking ...
A: valve problem
B: injector issue?

Neither one of which I have much troubleshooting knowledge.
10-30-2008, 04:49 PM
TurboDuane

Did he loosen the wires to the injector on #3? Heck, I'd check your torque on your harmonic balancer too. It would suck to have it fall off one day. Is the idler pully released and keeping the belt tight?

Also, boots on the wires sometimes trap excess air and I've seen them prevent a good connectoin to the coil, or cause a connector to pop off after a good connection was made.
10-30-2008, 06:30 PM
cone-cerned

Quote:

Originally Posted by cam76034

I thought about that, but if I pull the plug and ground it on the valve cover, it's shooting a pretty good spark...::Blah::::Blah::::Blah::

If you are getting good spark at one atmosphere of pressure, does that mean that you will get a good spark at the pressure inside the cylinder? I don't know, I'm just curious.

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