STS vs CSP

Ok, don't laught at me here. I know I'm anal...

So I get to thinking about Bean's STS2 comments at the GTG Saturday, and I take another look at the rules. Really my only mods are shocks/springs/rotors/lines, so I'm STS2 legal.

And it further occurs to me that what I really need is seat time more than anything else -- and that means tires, tires, and more tires.

So... I throw together a little spreadsheet. If I get 60 runs out of my $600 set of tires, that's $10 a run. If I were to run the SCCA events, the NTS2KOC events, and the two PCA schools, I'd be looking at on the order of 128 runs for the season. That's $1280 of tires and $425 of entry fees for a season cost of $1705, not counting incidentals.

Or, I could just pick up some 13x7's (or 7.5's) and spend the same $600 on some sporty treadwear 140+ street tires. If I got 200 runs out of these (seems reasonable), I'd be looking at $3/run or $384 worth of tires. I could run the entire season on them and maybe even have enough left to go burn them up at a drift event.

That'd keep me in the standard Miata class for NTS2OC, too.

What would you guys do? How's STS2 turnout, etc?

Chuck

I wouldn't have done the math... it would have turned me off quick!

Almost sounds like you are working on your long and inaccurate list of excuses before the season even starts!

You got skills! :cheers:

If it was me I'd buy some Azenis and run the schools, your going to put darn near a season of runs on the tires just doing PCA 101 & 102. Plus the tires would really make any difference in your assigned class is the SCCA. If you go R compound for S2K the kids with the NB's (second generation miatas) are going to eat your lunch. Or at least that was my experience last season, and the season before that...... :?

I'm hoping to have some S2K Azenis here shortly. :wink:

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

If you go R compound for S2K the kids with the NB's (second generation miatas) are going to eat your lunch. Or at least that was my experience last season, and the season before that...... :?

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You say that like it's a bad thing. :twisted:

I'm thinking I may try something different at S2k this season, and let someone else have a shot at the Miata R trophy. I'd hate to win it three years in a row. :P :wink:

Back to ccage's question - I think spending a season in STS2 on Azenis would be an excellent idea. One problem with your plan - there aren't any worthwhile street tires made in 13" sizes, so you may want to hold off on the 13" wheel purchase until next season or later this season.

What I'd do for now is just order a set of 14" Azenis for the wheels you currently have (especially since the car isn't your daily driver), and spend the rest on seat time.

Heck, there are pleanty of cheap 15 x7 inch wheels out there for Miatas, just pick up a set and order up some 205 50 15 Azenis and go STS 2. The tires will last longer than you think. I was getting 25 events per season on 6 tires in my STS Neon, the exeption being Nationals. Had to have new stuff for Nats.
Edge Racing will sell you a set of 15x7 plus 205 azenis for something in the neighborhood of 600.00, mounted, balanced, and shiped to your door...

Stick with a tire (non race rubber) class for now. In my opinion, you will learn how to handle your car better/quicker on some good street tires. Since a car on street tires doesn’t have the grip that it will when it has race rubber, you'll spend time learning how to modulate the throttle properly to keep her just on the edge. Street tires -- in general -- break away a lot less abruptly then race rubber, so you’ll get used to the feel/sound of your car/tires as they approach their limit. They also lock up under hard breaking more easily than race rubber, which will teach you not to simply mash the break pedal to the floor every time you want to slow down.

A year on street tires (TCSP, STS2), combined with a few AX schools (the PCA one can’t be beat for the price, Evolution schools can’t be beat for the lessons/experience), and you’ll be much better prepared for race rubber in 2006. You won’t be particularly competitive this year, but you’ll learn a ton and be a much better/faster driver by season end.

For reference, I spent my first year on street tires in Novice class (NCS) -- and took home the 1st Place Trophy for the year (ER). I then raced on street tires at SCCA events in my second year (TCS), and grabbed the 2nd place Trophy. Last year, I "moved up" to race rubber, and limped into two 4th place Trophies :? . The competition is tough in those race rubber classes!

I am using my 15x7 w/ azenies, from last years STS civic on the miata this season because the stock tires suck & I dont have money for anything else. I wish I would be able to go into the STS2 class, but I have a torsen LSD which from what I understand bumps me into CSP.

So with my stock-other-than-15x7s car, im going to be thrown in the ring with all the CSP guys, this isnt going to be pretty...atleast i'll have fun & learn the car.

Wait a minute... Kestrel, in your post, you mention a 'TCSP' class. Would I be able to run that class with my azenies?? This would be nice seeing as I could slowly prep the car/suspension for real CSP & get the 13x9s I want next year.

Would I be the only person in that class?? I only see 2 or 3 people in CSP at the events that ive paid attention to that class. Some direct competetion would be nice, but oh well, it would be better than being slaughtered every weekend...

TCSP lets you run against other folks on street tires. Azenises are legal for that class.

Last year, Miatas took the top 4 spots in street tire at ER and at least one or two trophies at SCCA.

It's an indexed class, so you'll have to run faster than CS Miatas, but not as fast as SM2 Miatas or Vettes.

I may join you, as my decision to run primarily NTS2KOC and PCA events this year means my car is probably going to get lowered soon.

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Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

Wait a minute... Kestrel, in your post, you mention a 'TCSP' class. Would I be able to run that class with my azenies?? This would be nice seeing as I could slowly prep the car/suspension for real CSP & get the 13x9s I want next year.

Would I be the only person in that class?? I only see 2 or 3 people in CSP at the events that ive paid attention to that class. Some direct competetion would be nice, but oh well, it would be better than being slaughtered every weekend...

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As TC pointed out, the local "Street Tires" class is an indexed class. That means it is open to any car on street tires (minimum wear of 140). The car is classed according to its other mods (in your case, CSP), and then indexed against all other cars in the "Street Tire" class using the PAX Index. This way we have one class for everyone who wants to run on street tires, whether they have an HS Mini, a SS Z06, or a CSP Miata, and they all have a chance at winning.

In your case, you'd run whatever number you use, and the class letters TCSP, to signify a CSP PAX Index in the Street Tire class.

Miatas seem to do pretty well in the local "Street Tire" class - Sammm, TC, onething, gabkwong and Kestrel are all veterans and former season trophy winners in the local "Street Tire" class.

Ok, I think I'm seeing the light.

My car seems a lot better "prepped" for STS2 than CSP, and it'll keep me from having to do the mods I don't want to do -- like removing the top, a/c, stereo, etc. (No offense, Bean!)

Now the question for me is 14" or 15"... Iain, even though it's not my daily driver, I do like to drive it, so I'd rather avoid putting tires on it that I won't be willing to drive on the street. But Diamond steels really aren't that expensive, and in 14"/15" there are some other good and cheap options as well.

As far as gearing is concerned, the 15" can actually be smaller. The Falken spec sheets show the overall diameter of the 205/50R15 as 23.1 vs 23.2 for the 195/60R14. (There's a 205/55 if you don't want that, but in my case it seems like smaller is better.)

Price is another story... We're looking at $70/ea. for the 15s vs. $49/ea. for the 14s. That's $80 a set. Of course they're still all quite cheap!

Chuck

ccage, I think you may have misunderstood me. A lot of people here use the Azenis as street tires. Heck, more than a couple of people I know use them as tires on daily driven cars that see 20k+ miles a year.

Personally, I'd find the Azenis a little rough for daily use, given that I drive put about 25k a year on my car, a lot of it on bad roads. However, if it weren't my daily driver (like the situation you're apparently in :wink: ), I'd run Azenis in a heartbeat, both for the times I wanted to drive it on the street and probably for the occasional autocross as well.

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Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

"Wait a minute... Kestrel, in your post, you mention a 'TCSP' class. Would I be able to run that class with my azenies??"

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I think others have answered your question, but I'll simply add that you can run TCSP with Azenis -- since they are street tires -- but you'd probably be better off in STS2. The index in STS2 is much more favorable than CSP. That doesn't really matter that much, unless you plan to win the Rapid Pax money at Equipe Rapide events :wink: , but you'll have more fun running in STS2 against the other Miata Pilots.

By the way, you don't have to take the top off to run in STS2....

and Altiain mentioned that some run Azenis all the time... I run Azenis all the time! :wink:

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Originally Posted by Kestrel

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Originally Posted by Jiggerachi

"Wait a minute... Kestrel, in your post, you mention a 'TCSP' class. Would I be able to run that class with my azenies??"

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I think others have answered your question, but I'll simply add that you can run TCSP with Azenis -- since they are street tires -- but you'd probably be better off in STS2. The index in STS2 is much more favorable than CSP. That doesn't really matter that much, unless you plan to win the Rapid Pax money at Equipe Rapide events :wink: , but you'll have more fun running in STS2 against the other Miata Pilots.

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Its a C package, the torsen throws me out of STS2 :(


Oh yea, thanks guys, you saved me from getting mudered.

Sorry for hijacking your thread...

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

By the way, you don't have to take the top off to run in STS2....

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That's one of the big plusses indeed.

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

and Altiain mentioned that some run Azenis all the time... I run Azenis all the time! :wink:

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Yeah, but you're not exactly the best example of "street practical," wouldn't you say? :roll:

Seriously, though, I'm sold on STS2. I'm just shuffling around the wheel/tire combinations to pick one. Are most of you ordering yours from DiscountTireDirect.com and mounting locally?

Chuck

I have pretty much run Azenis as my street tire exclusively until this fall when I needed tires and realized I had the Yokas in the Attic since I had pulled them shortly after I got the car. Figure I'd wear them out this winter. I really really miss my Azenis.....

Sammm has set up a MME deal for Azenis with local Discount tire store. 8)

I'll second that Azeniseseses make GREAT street tires. However, if they are "dual use" they get rather noisy once you set a couple of good flat spots in them...

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Sammm has set up a MME deal for Azenis with local Discount tire store. 8)

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What's the deal and what is in stock?

Chuck

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Originally Posted by ccage

Yeah, but you're not exactly the best example of "street practical," wouldn't you say?

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Actually, yes I would!

I've already resigned myself to the fact that autocrossing is going to be a pricey endeavour. Mind you, not as pricey as shifter karts or the like, but pricey none-the-less. Hence the reason, unlike yourself, I wouldn't be breaking out the spread sheets and calculating tires costs... it would only make me worry more!

ROFLMAO!

Tell us 3Bean, what are the next couple of things you have in mind for the BUR?

RJ

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

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Originally Posted by ccage

Yeah, but you're not exactly the best example of "street practical," wouldn't you say?

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Actually, yes I would!

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I hope you aren't taking any offense to that comment. It wasn't meant that way at all. You're doing what you want with your Miata, and that's cool. 8)

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

I've already resigned myself to the fact that autocrossing is going to be a pricey endeavour. Mind you, not as pricey as shifter karts or the like, but pricey none-the-less. Hence the reason, unlike yourself, I wouldn't be breaking out the spread sheets and calculating tires costs... it would only make me worry more!

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FWIW, I did that because I didn't want to get my hopes up and jump in only to run out of money and be disappointed.

And (also FWIW), it doesn't look nearly as bad with street tires in the budget. Assuming I can swing 150 runs from them (which seems possible seeing that TW 60/80 tires deliver ~60), I can run all the NTS2KOC and SCCA events as well as the two PCA schools for around $625. Not that scary when you consider the expenses spread out over 8 months! (Heck, that's under $100/mo.)

Doing the spreadsheet helped in a couple of ways.

1) It helped me see quickly the difference between CSP and STS2 -- those soft tires would have eaten my lunch.

Like many I have a limited budget and it was great to be able to see what the tradeoff would be. Back when I first got into autocrossing (briefly) in college a great guy (who still writes a column in SportsCar) did a fun run in my CRX and turned a run 6 sec. faster than mine (on a ~1 min. course WITH MY 275 LB. FAT AZZ IN THE CAR). Clearly there was more to be had from the driver than the car, and that's how I need to approach this now. All I have from back then are memories of people -- I'm a 100% novice driver and from a competitive standpoint seat time is more likely to make me faster than parts -- even soft tires.

2) It helped me balance my money and decide what events I'd like to run.

It seems to me that the schools are worth the $$ to run, though I don't think I'm going to have the $$ to do the Evolution. We'll see as it gets closer -- maybe I'll get lucky and end up loaded then -- but realistically probably not. :(

3) It helped me figure out how to handle tires as I may have a driving partner.

I have a friend who'd like to run with me, and now I have a bit of a grip on per-run cost we can do a "tire fund" and eliminate problems if I run more events than he wants to. (Or if he bails out, this gives us a way to square up.)

Anyway, I think I'm finally on track. Unless something really weird happens I'm planning on picking up the Azenis and angling for STS2. With any luck I'll be mowing down cones come Feb.

Thanks to everyone who's pitched in here with information and advice. It's also nice to know that I won't have to go to my first event alone with no idea what's going on.

Chuck

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Originally Posted by ccage

I hope you aren't taking any offense to that comment.

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None taken at all!

For reference, my current Azenises still have the better part of 1.5/32 tread and have about 6,000 street miles + 110 runs.