If price were no object, and money grew on trees...
If price were no object, and money grew on trees...
Very subjective. Kind of like trying to herd cats.
Well, post your opinion. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio-Active
I would probably go with the Tein Mono Flex coilovers.
Interesting...Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx74
I love my ASTs. Excellent performance on the track/course with livable comfort on the street.
No reason to buy anything from 949racing when AST and Vorshlag are local of DFW. I really like the AST single adjustable setup on jrj512's car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
I have no personal experience with either, but the topic came up over beer a few weeks ago. A Miata owner with ASTs was talking about how great they were, and I asked him how he thought they compared to the XIDA. He said that he suspected that the XIDA was probably a hair better but he wouldn't lose any sleep over it (or something to that effect). One thing is for sure, both are miles better than what I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
And yes, local support should give the XIDA extra points.
AST's. Hands down.
The first week we put AST 5100's on jeff_man's car, I ran a 1:58.14 at TWS CW on my first time driving his 99 miata, with a passenger. The car is as smooth as stock on the street with 800/500 spring rates. The valving is magical.
To put it into perspective, jeff's car was only good for a 1:29.xx on stock Tein Flex at Hallett this year. I fully expect to run a 1:26.99 or better next year.
Thomas, you should share your experience with the 4100's on your car and the difference in lap times from just swapping to the shocks.
Mr. BRG will chime in shortly....
I've driven Jrj512's car and the AST shocks are fine.
But I prefer my Koni 2812 setup and delrin bushings.
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...a/SNC10881.jpg
I'd like to try those 2812's.Quote:
Originally Posted by modernbeat
I enjoy my JRZ monotube singles . . . I'd really like to try JRZ monotube doubles/triples/quads with the 22 mm shaft, but 4-10K for shocks is kind of out there.
What did your JRZ's cost? I'd like to check out your car and drive on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
It was ~2100 for shocks and tophats shipped (that includes extra charges for 2.25 inch perches and for custom front top hats for the NB)Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwag
Add about ~250 for hypercos and about ~40 for bumpstops and packers
Shortly after that, I think JRZ forced Mike to up the posted price. They are currently listed at 525 a piece, which would make the set another ~400 dollars more if Mike sticks to the listed price.
Come out to an autox in the spring and you can co-drive.
949 and AST-USA have an interesting relationship, it's probably worth a phone call if you're interested but the Xida/949 shocks are different from the 5100's in several ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
I have 5100's and passionately in love with them. I cut over 2-seconds off at Hallett going from the Flex.
I wish I had video from last weekend when I was playing with the Evo's, Spec Boxsters, Vettes, and other cars from the "instructor group" (read: good drivers that know the track). I was turning in significantly earlier, holding more apex speed through the corner and most notable had no problems braking over the wash-boards at ECR. I didn't cut time off my lap at Hallett until I learned to turn the car in earlier, nor did I make the rationalization on this until I got home..hey, I'm a layman learning to drive a fast car here. I predict 1:26's in my car at Hallett this year which is a country mile faster than the 1:30's I was turning on Flex and the only thing I've changed is suspension, and for the record I have 70+ hours at that track so it's not a case of discovery in my opinion.
When I watch my Hallett vid I notice that next year I'll turn-in significantly earlier in 6 and 10, and if I ever man up turns 7-8 are now a "no lift" pair of corners...but I'm not man enough for that.
I think that was me. The Xida have slight valving hardware type changes that I don't understand, the Xida single adjustments if for compression and rebound (rebound only on my 5100's), and the spherical mounts are different 949 making their own mount in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
I agree that local support is huge, it came in handy when I broke a perch bolt a couple weeks ago and will come in handy in a few years when I get them revalved.
Drove Hollis's (now Bellamy's) STS car on similar race Konis (not sure exactly which model) back to back with Jerrett's car on Hollis's test course. I really couldn't feel a big difference in the two. Didn't see a big difference in performance, but I don't think I could stand dealing with those adjustment knobs on a regular basis. They were a pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by modernbeat
I'm running a set of AST 4100s on my R32 right now and have had great results with them. I'm running about a 1:26 at MSR 1.7CCW and 2:07 at ECR in a 3400 lb FWD based car with just ASTs and a good set of street tires (Hankook RS3s). The car still has the stock airbox with a paper filter and the stock exhaust. :)
The Hollis/Bellamy car and my own were on nearly identical suspensions. The biggest suspension difference between Jerrett's car and my own was the bushings. I had swapped my car to Delrin and it made a huge difference over the polyurethane I was using - which was also much better than the rubber bushings in it previously. On the knobs - I used them to tune the car, not adjust it for local conditions. It took about two hours of runs during a practice event every time we switched spring rates or changed to a different tire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto
Moton, penske any of the big boys.
AST is small time:Quote:
Originally Posted by B00t13g
http://www.grand-am.com/news/index.c...=229&cid=39084
^ lmfao
If you want to know the exact differences between the XIDA Clubsports and the AST 5100s, your best bet would be to talk with AST-USA or 949. In my opinion, the better performing shock would be the AST 5100s because you are adjusting rebound only, not both rebound and compression with a single knob. I'm guessing (I have not checked this with AST or 949) the XIDA Clubsports are similar to the Sportline I available in Europe which also adjusts rebound and compression with a single knob. There may be changes to the internal adjustment mechanisms or the valving, but I'm not sure and it would be best to check with AST-USA or 949 for these facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
The 5100s will be aluminum bodied shocks whereas the XIDA Clubsports may have steel bodies (again not sure on this, just judging by their price point). Another advantage with the 5000 series is their modularity which would allow you to upgrade to 5220s (double adjustable with remote reservoirs) or 5320s (triple adjustable with remote reservoirs) in the future. Most likely the 5100s will also see improvements in their design trickle down from AST's work with the Grand Am and World Challenge racing teams, but I have no idea when/if those upgrades would appear. Overall, both the AST 5100s and the XIDA Clubsports would be a great upgrade from a twin tube style shock and serve you very well.
Hope this helps,
Matt@Vorshlag
The xida shocks are all aluminum bodies and you get the same modularity with the 949 shocks from what I've seen and discussed with 949.
My 5100's have no remote tanks...does that mean I have 5000's or something else? Why do you guys do the remote tanks? Am I missing something that I can't comprehend (entirely possible) because I don't have remotes on the rears? I agree that it's nice to have only one variable to adjust at the track (rebound) because I'd probably screw it up if I had other options, but I'm an uniformed layman simply turning one knob when I want more grip in the front or rear.
I talked to Brian a few weeks ago and he said the first test-day with Grand-Am was a "Maytag repair man" day where only one guy out of the complete field wanted adjustments...so maybe we won't see anything trickle down. It will be interesting to see what happens in terms of development at mid season.
The 5100s don't have remotes, but 5220s and 5320s would, so nothing odd with your setup. I just refer to the whole 5100/5220/5320 grouping as the "5000 series". Good to know on the XIDA shocks, I knew their other models were aluminum, but wasn't sure on the new Clubsports. Remotes for the doubles and triples move the compression adjusters inside the reservoirs so that it frees up room inside the shock body for more travel. The main things I've seen so far from the Grand Am development is a new reservoir design and a new design for the upper part of the shock where the reservoir attaches. I'm unsure if this will become a standard design or something just for GA shocks, but I'm sure AST-USA will release more info when/if those changes are available.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
How do I know if I need the additional travel? It doesn't feel like it now, but I'm ignorant to real suspension tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faerus
I had to put remote reservoirs on my rears. However, I have early versions (first NA Miata fitting) of the dampers that might not need them, anymore. I was blowing the oil seal because of the low travel. I have not had any problems in the 20 months since.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
I had a talk with Terry about this issue a while back. Remember that jrj512 was one of the first Miatas in the country on ASTs. There has been a design change in the shock body allowing for additional travel. Trey's 5100s should not have travel issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
Does anyone know the out the door price for a set of AST 5100? The Xida CS sound tempting at $1799, but I think the helper springs are a good idea and so are the top hats. That means going with the Xida-S at $2389.
Suspension always gets out of control. At first I was looking into the FM setups, then it was Tein SS, then Tein Flex. Then I decided monotubes are the way to go, which led me to the FatCats ($1575 now). But the MonoFlex have a lot more adjustability... Then the Xida CS showed up for the same money as the MonoFlex. But the Xida CS lack helpersprings and the upgraded top hats... So I've gone from wanting a $659 shock/spring combo to a $2389 coilover setup. I don't know if I can stomache the $2400 for coilovers. $1769 (+100 for stiffer front springs) for the MonoFlex is pushing the limits of what my brain says is acceptable. HOWEVER, I did ride in BRG's car and was VERY impressed with his setup.
I do know that the Flex (391/336) were more bouncy than the FatCats I've ridden on (525/350) and that the 5100 (700/400) were noticeably the smoothest. My father in law just put MonoFlex on his car about a month ago. I'm going to drive it next week and see how it feels. Depending on how that goes I'll either be saving for the MonoFlex or the 5100/Xida-S.
You need to ride for a few laps, that will sway you...it's another world. The damn car changes direction so quickly that there's no comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonieGT
AST made a design change to the bottom guide that gave them enough travel without the need for reservoirs, but the first few sets of singles did have remotes. If the doubles and triples didn't have remotes, the adjustment mechanism in the bottom guide would take up too much room, thus the need for remotes. That is the best way I can describe it in layman's terms. AST-USA could provide a better, more technical answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
I don't want to advertise since I do work for Vorshlag and we aren't a supporting vendor here. We spoke with AST-USA today (I had some questions for them since I will most likely be getting 5100s for my car) and I believe the price on our website will be going down. I'll know more details soon, but feel free to give us a call. Again, if one the admin's thinks this is too close to advertising, please let me know and I'll remove the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonieGT
Did I misinterpret the website or are the 5100's considerably more expensive than the Xida-S? I'm kind of thinking that the Xida-S are too expensive considering I'll only be going to the track 2-3 times a year. If the 5100's are closer to $3k then I may just have to "settle" for the MonoFlex... or maybe check the couch cushions for quarters and save up for the Xida-S...
Back up... on closer inspection they're ~$3,700? Coilovers are $2800+, springs are $299, top hats are $558. They are FANTASTIC coilovers, but that's too rich for my blood. Please correct me if I'm wrong on the price. My next question is, how can the Xida-S even be in the same ballpark at $1300 less?
That's what I was trying to say in my previous post. I believe our pricing should be dropping down near or to the Xida-S price. I'll know more soon though. Just shoot me a PM or email so we don't derail the OP's thread anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonieGT
Any reason you think you need the helper springs or top hats?Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonieGT
Helper springs: I thought that Emilio said they are necessary to keep the springs from getting loose at full extension. Maybe some owners can comment on whether or not the springs are preloaded at all at reasonable ride heights.
Top hats: No real reason other than the fact that they are better than the stockers :).
If I were buying today, I guess I'd go with the club sports because they can be upgraded...
I have spherical uppers and no helpers. I think the spherical uppers reduce compliance which increases butt-to-road feel and that was worth the extra cash to me because I had to buy those or 99 mounts. I do not have the helper springs and although 949 thinks I need them I have no plans to buy them because I'm cheap and lazy. If you already have the 99 uppers, don't buy the sphericals because you're more than half way there with your wallet.
I'd like to have them because of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqKsQKJClLU
but you don't see me running out to buy them. They help high-speed motion quite a bit so I'd like to have them, but I'm broke currently.
...then again, maybe that's why I can't keep up with KenO.
BRG, are you sure that your springs get loose while driving? Or, do you remember if the springs were at least slightly preloaded prior to install? If so, then there would be no use for helper springs right?
I don't know if they come loose or not, I'm fairly certain the sway bar holds them on the perches though. That's what the sway bar does...it uses the spring on the other side of the car to increase rate. You're shock is not flopping around because of the sway bar and it could the damping won't let the shock drop so fast. The myth that springs "flop around" without the helper spring is dumb. Watch the video and try again, the helper spring does more than hold them on the perch.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonieGT
In response to your PM there are helper springs which we are discussing, and 25-50lb "tender"springs that ricers buy to hold the spring tight when off the car. The helper effectively creates a much softer dual spring rate and that's about all I understand. I assume that high rate springs lack something that the lower rate provides to high-speed forces which you can see from watching that video.
All that adjustable shock body stuff is lost by the higher end stuff like Arugosta, Penske, AST, Bilstein, KW, and JRZ...they don't waste their time with it for some reason.
I seem to remember hearing that Tein uses the adjustable length because it allows them to make a generic shock cartridge that will work for many makes. That allows them to keep prices down. Could be true...Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
It does look like the helper spring is doing some actual work in that video. It looks like it helps keep the inside wheels planted around corners...
Pretty cool slow-motion video on that WC car, and yes, with that set-up it is unloading the main spring under high speed cornering.
But in reality, that's not a common situaiton at all, if the spring length is sized properly. That WC car has what looks to be a very short main spring. I'm sure there was a packaging reason to do that on that K-Pax Volvo.
We tend to size the springs with the ASTs we sell so that they can never come unloaded in normal race or street situations, but rarely do we make it so long that it has preload at full droop. 90% of the AST coilover kits we sell have no tender springs. The only time these "tenderless" springs can unload is when A) the car gets airborne or B) if the car is on a lift and both sides are allowed to droop to full extension. There are very rare instances where that type of set-up can still unload - usually the only time it can happen on the street is when driving over extreme angled entrances or driveways.
If you can't unload the main spring in normal track/street situations, a tender spring is a useless expense. It is a static spring height spacer once loaded to coil bind, which happens at ride height (most tenders take less than 40-50 lbs to go to coil bind). More partially sprung weight, more cost, for no benefit.
There are rare situations when we do run tenders. Subaru GD chassis rear struts usually need them, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. There are many cars where it hurts you to have too long of a spring package/tender, especially the fronts of most BMWs. These cars can fit a good bit more wheel inboard if you run a short (6") main spring and no tender. We've managed to fit 18x10" wheels under stock BMW E36 fenders by doing this.
Thanks,