I left time in a few places after looking at data, which I'm also new at. I can pick out at least 1-second in mistakes on my best lap, I pretty much struggled all weekend to get in front of the SM times, and finally did on the last session, which is pathetic and stupid. I need to really work on bringing the car down and trail braking from 5th gear speed, 4th gear trail braking is much easier. I'm also on 11-weekend old NT-01s so I didn't have the most grip in the world, but the tire was still pretty fast.
I want to compare with KenOhhhhhh, but my datalogger doesn't like to pair too easily and I'm new at this.
01-30-2012, 01:24 PM
ken o
I was not consistent and it cost me 1st. Finished .129 out of the top spot. My best was a 1:43.2, theoretical was a 1:41.7. Not one lap were I had more than 2 sectors as the best.
01-30-2012, 01:26 PM
Nails
Are there sposed to be linkies on this thread? Just saying.
Ok I see both now. That track looks odd in that direction.
01-30-2012, 01:41 PM
Bigsrturbo
Hey brg, if u don't mind how much power is that car putting down?
01-30-2012, 02:03 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigsrturbo
Hey brg, if u don't mind how much power is that car putting down?
215whp for dumb NASA TTB. I'd rather run it at 250whp and drive like a man. The difference is that I'm only running the long-runners in the 99 plenum so it's making "trucker torque", lol.
01-30-2012, 02:09 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken o
I was not consistent and it cost me 1st. Finished .129 out of the top spot. My best was a 1:43.2, theoretical was a 1:41.7. Not one lap were I had more than 2 sectors as the best.
You are absolutely crushing me in corner speed. Is there some kind of magic I'm missing where I'm not loading the car up properly, or is it tire that's giving you 8-11mph more speed in the carousel, 8mph in Diamond's Edge, 12mph in Key Hole, 5mph in Gut Check, and 10mph in sugar & Spice? At least I know I'm not too far off. Frankly, as much as I hate to say it, I don't think it's all tire. Tell me your secrets or I'll tackle you on your scooter.
I don't want to be competitive with power, I want grip!!! Maybe 10+ weekends on NT-01s is too much? I suppose you're also on a new 275 Hoosier and I'm on a "last day" 225 Nitto, lol.
01-30-2012, 03:15 PM
Bigsrturbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
215whp for dumb NASA TTB. I'd rather run it at 250whp and drive like a man. The difference is that I'm only running the long-runners in the 99 plenum so it's making "trucker torque", lol.
Nice! Car is fast,
01-30-2012, 03:43 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Thanks. It's pretty scary on 12psi with only makes 260whp.
01-30-2012, 04:27 PM
ken o
New 275 R6s give you the hand of God grip. My M3 has many hours of setup on R6s to get it to this point.
How is your car setup? Alignment, shock settings, etc. The white M3 has a mirror setup to my car expect tire size. His times were very close to my times. I would guess you may have some settings that could be tweaked.
If you set a car up to run on Hoosiers, you need to run the car on Hoosiers. You cannot vary from your setup by too much or you will not see the same results as the original configuration. You need to have a setup for new tires, old tires, race tires, street tires.
Also on that lap the car was on the very edge of staying on the track. See last turn for a good example. But I know where that limit is and what the car feels like when it is about to let go. The longer wheel base gives me more notice over a Miata.
I suggest getting fresh tires. Setup for new to ok rubber. Spin the car or slide it to find the limit. Get a better data logger and see why you went faster or slower in a section. You seem to be moving the wheel a lot. Could be the crappy tires and fighting for grip.
01-30-2012, 05:09 PM
SirHustlerEsq
I run the 949 alignment which makes the most grip of any I've run, the car feels balanced. I think that datalogger will be OK now that it's working. I am a bit more timid than you through the sweeper and through Gut Check, 106mph in my car through there was horrifying, I have no desire to do that again, lol. In the slower corners the tires are talking and I'm not fighting any under or oversteer; the car is set-up to turn on the gas pedal ever so slightly which is why I runner a bigger swaybar in the rear than most. I think this is set-up right because although I was throttle-obtuse in the carousel and Diamond's Edge, Bus Stop is neutral, and Keyhole is full-throttle 3rd gear with no oversteer. I really felt like that car was set-up right for this track from the seat, but there might be more time in Carousel with more rear grip...then I'll really have to cook the tires in the slow sections. I know I needed to open up the entry on Diamond's Edge, I was sketch every lap in Sugar & spice, my brain never made it that far down the track I guess http://www.trackhq.com/forums/attach...o-trak_map.jpg
I want to get back there on new rubber and see what kind of numbers I put down. Thanks for talking about this with me.
01-30-2012, 05:13 PM
SirHustlerEsq
When I get the van I may run two sets of tires so I have something to practice on and something for money. One can be a new set of NT-01, the other can be the old set. I had a tough time sustaining anything over 1g...I know that's not right for this car.
01-30-2012, 07:58 PM
ken o
I want a trailer so I can do the same with tires. One set for the money, one set for practice.
01-30-2012, 08:08 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken o
I want a trailer so I can do the same with tires. One set for the money, one set for practice.
When I get the van next month I bet I can find some space for them.
01-30-2012, 08:28 PM
slowchildmiata
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
When I get the van next month I bet I can find some space for them.
Just don't accept Ken O's payment terms in back of van.
01-30-2012, 08:38 PM
762
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
I run the 949 alignment which makes the most grip of any I've run, the car feels balanced.
Alignment specs from the internet are almost always going to be faster than the ones you find from testing, and frequent changes. ;)
Try new ones all the time, the stopwatch does not lie.
01-30-2012, 08:47 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762
Alignment specs from the internet are almost always going to be faster than the ones you find from testing, and frequent changes. ;)
Try new ones all the time, the stopwatch does not lie.
I've taken tire temps, the 949 settings work, and pretty much every fast car in the nation runs those settings with slight variation in rear tow and caster which I adjusted for personal preference. I remember when I switched to them for Hallett a couple years ago, suddenly seconds fell off the lap.
01-30-2012, 08:47 PM
slowchildmiata
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762
Try new ones all the time, the stopwatch does not lie.
Mine lies.
01-30-2012, 08:49 PM
slowchildmiata
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
I've taken tire temps, the 949 settings work, and pretty much every fast car in the nation runs those settings with slight variation in rear tow and caster which I adjusted for personal preference. I remember when I switched to them for Hallett a couple years ago, suddenly seconds fell off the lap.
I'm glad my car is slow. Otherwise I'd run 949 settings.
01-30-2012, 08:51 PM
Titus
Quote:
Originally Posted by 762
Alignment specs from the internet are almost always going to be faster than the ones you find from testing, and frequent changes. ;)
Try new ones all the time, the stopwatch does not lie.
A couple points of reference... Mr BRG is using ASTs on a Miata. The 949 Racing team just recently won their class at the NASA 25hrs of Thunderhill in a Miata on ASTs. Granted I'm just a bench racer here, but I would think that 949 alignment specs are at least a good place to start.
01-30-2012, 08:57 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
A couple points of reference... Mr BRG is using ASTs on a Miata. The 949 Racing team just recently won their class at the NASA 25hrs of Thunderhill in a Miata on ASTs. Granted I'm just a bench racer here, but I would think that 949 alignment specs are at least a good place to start.
The way this car handles and the way it behaves intuitively is shocking. I'm happy I had the scratch to pick-up those shocks when I did...because I don't have it now, lol.
01-30-2012, 08:58 PM
762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
A couple points of reference... Mr BRG is using ASTs on a Miata. The 949 Racing team just recently won their class at the NASA 25hrs of Thunderhill in a Miata on ASTs. Granted I'm just a bench racer here, but I would think that 949 alignment specs are at least a good place to start.
I am sure they are an ok place to start, but certainly not the end all be all. Also winning an endurance race where things like tire wear are important factors can make a good alignment significantly different compared to an alignment for outright pace at a TT.
Easy way to figure out if it’s the car or the driver – have someone else (like Ken) drive the car. If they are faster, it’s the driver. If they aren’t, it’s the car.
In a non-aero car, mid corner speed is all about mechanical grip. If your tires have 10-11 weekends on them, they are generating less mechanical grip than a good set of street tires. You can’t go fast on crappy tires, and you’re wasting money trying to set a car up to compensate for crappy tires.
Greg makes a good point about setup – no two cars (or drivers) are exactly alike. What works for one may not work for another. If you want to learn to extract the most speed out of your fancy shocks, you need to constantly experiment with different setups – shock settings, toe settings, bar balance, etc. If you don’t experiment, how do you know you’re getting the most out of what you have?
01-31-2012, 09:11 AM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
Easy way to figure out if it’s the car or the driver – have someone else (like Ken) drive the car. If they are faster, it’s the driver. If they aren’t, it’s the car.
In a non-aero car, mid corner speed is all about mechanical grip. If your tires have 10-11 weekends on them, they are generating less mechanical grip than a good set of street tires. You can’t go fast on crappy tires, and you’re wasting money trying to set a car up to compensate for crappy tires.
Greg makes a good point about setup – no two cars (or drivers) are exactly alike. What works for one may not work for another. If you want to learn to extract the most speed out of your fancy shocks, you need to constantly experiment with different setups – shock settings, toe settings, bar balance, etc. If you don’t experiment, how do you know you’re getting the most out of what you have?
Yeah, I'd love to get a hot-shoe in the car...but that will never happen. All it takes is one missed shift or something to that effect and I have a $4k hit.
I spent quite a few hours getting set-up on this car and making notes, and ending up with a little more caster and more rear-tow in than most, plus a slightly tighter sway-bar in the rear. It seems like some people say to run these tires until they show cords, others say 5-days.
Yeah, I'd love to get a hot-shoe in the car...but that will never happen. All it takes is one missed shift or something to that effect and I have a $4k hit.
I spent quite a few hours getting set-up on this car and making notes, and ending up with a little more caster and more rear-tow in than most, plus a slightly tighter sway-bar in the rear. It seems like some people say to run these tires until they show cords, others say 5-days.
Thanks.
Another small suggestion - buy a durometer. Then you can start to correlate lap times to tire hardness and figure out when they start to drop off. From there you can decide how long you want to run them competitively.
As both you and Ken mentioned above, if you're competing for contingency you want to do it on the freshest tires you can justify (budget). If you have more than one set of wheels and the means to transport them, use older tires for practice and save the fresh tires for when it matters.
01-31-2012, 10:52 AM
SixAce
Quote:
Originally Posted by ken o
I was not consistent and it cost me 1st. Finished .129 out of the top spot. My best was a 1:43.2, theoretical was a 1:41.7. Not one lap were I had more than 2 sectors as the best.
On Saturday, your TTB 2nd place time would have beaten the entire TTA field of 8 cars by 4/10s over 1st place. Sunday, they picked up the pace and you would have placed 2nd TTA (2/10s out of first) of the 8 car field. Unless I'm reading the results wrong..
I'd have to agree the hours of setup and fresh R6 seem to be working pretty well. Nice driving too. I was impressed that in your vid, the only place where you broke the rear loose was on what appears to be the worst possible corner to lose it in (the only wall on the track). Shows that you are pushing it everywhere and not skeered of no dang concrete wall :clap:
That TTB stook must have really been good. He would have been 1st TTA both days.
01-31-2012, 11:03 AM
SixAce
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckearns
Here's my best laps from Saturday
and Sunday
Chris
Wow, that's pretty nice. Great job Chris :clap: I'm guessing you were on NT01, and the Integra was on Hoosiers? I'm thinking Price may be an alien or sumpthin..
See ya at MSR-C.
01-31-2012, 11:11 AM
SirHustlerEsq
Josh is smokin fast, the car is dialed, and he knows the track really well.
01-31-2012, 11:12 AM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
Another small suggestion - buy a durometer. Then you can start to correlate lap times to tire hardness and figure out when they start to drop off. From there you can decide how long you want to run them competitively.
Oh man, I never knew such an animal was affordable, I am going to order one.
01-31-2012, 11:27 AM
SixAce
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brg
Yeah, I'd love to get a hot-shoe in the car...but that will never happen. All it takes is one missed shift or something to that effect and I have a $4k hit... {snipped}
Thanks.
LOL. I remember watching the last hot shoe you let drive your car at ECR. Prolly 100+ mph off at the end of the back straight (right in front of me).
Nice job dropping 1.8 on Sunday's time. Ken O's suggestion on coaching is valid and something I'm considering as well.
Up to now, I'd say the 2 best things that have helped me are: 1.) Having MER cornerbalance/align/setup my car. Crazy difference and well worth it IMO. And 2.) Data. Being able to share and overlay with faster drivers in simialr setup/cars helped. Even when Ken O. just shared his data once at TWS, it helped. Even though we have different data setups/cars and can't overlay, I could focus on sectors to see where he was kicking my arse. Still kicks my arse, but I'm faster because of the sharing..(Thanks again, Ken.)
01-31-2012, 11:55 AM
ckearns
Yeah - Josh is fast. The Integra is fast as hell in a straight line too.
I've got to figure out another 6 points of worthwhile spending to max out TTE.
Re: Durometer - this is the kit I picked up. Durometer and depth gauge in a dainty aluminum box. http://www.ogracing.com/longacre-durometer-tread-gauge.
Re: scales and corner balancing - I picked up scales over the winter, so if any of you yahoos want to DIY your ride heights and corner weights, I'll make them available for a reasonable rental fee.
Re: data - that racekeeper box I got last year is the absolute best go fast part I've put in the car. Look at data after every session, correlate positioning, gear, all kinds of crap to results. The one thing I don't have is an in-car lap time display, and I'm not sure I want one yet. I'll pursue consistency for another year before I start trying to throw down a bin it or win it style lap. Continuous improvement or multiple laps within .1 of each other makes me a happy guy.
I spent this weekend getting familiar with the track and trying to suss out good lines - next time I'll try to scare myself a time or two. There's a couple of places where I'm leaving a full second on the table - exiting keyhole and over the launch down through gut check and the follow through at the end of the back straight. There's a bit of time to make up in diamond's edge by late braking and a hard rotation at the back of the corner, but that's got to be easier to get wrong than it is to get right.
I'll fiddle with the suspension at Cresson a bit more too. Wanted to get the car feeling comfortable to learn a new track rather than having it on edge.
All in all a great weekend - I was very much satisfied with the times I was able to post.
Chris
01-31-2012, 01:34 PM
SirHustlerEsq
I like that in-car lap time display, but I only saw the actual times when I pulled off the track. I could only peel my eyes from the track to see the over-under on the back stretch and exiting Sugar & Spice. Apparently my brain doesn't work as quickly as "real drivers". However, the adjustments that I was looking at on track in the third session were studied in more detail in Chris' awesome trailer and that's where I had the time to think about what made XYZ lap faster, and why. By the 4th session with the logger I realized that I could use the over/under display to check myself for over-driving and sloppiness. It also told me when to throw away the back half of the lap and focus on the next lap.
I've already said it, but I'm so envious of your Race Keeper. It takes several dozen clicks to compare two laps, it's a real annoyance to compare laps from different sessions, and I can only pair video if I buy a $150 license and then sync the video (which takes time, and can only watch one vid at a time. Yours is awesome to open two laps, and hit "play". I'll eventually get the set-up you have.
I'm still stunned to see how powerful data is for us weekenders. Simply comparing time and distance from one session tells me which line is fastest, lat-g tells me if I'm inconsistent with steering angle, long-g tells me if I'm braking properly distance/time tells me if there is speed to gain with a straighter exit or more corner speed. I predict a significant improvement this year, and I'm really interested to see what this data tells me about Hallett which is the only track I really know well.
Sadly, data also told me that I have to shift ultra-fast if I want to pick up some time. I always thought that since the car was moving, I could granny shift and not suffer too much of a penalty, that's not true. Each up-shift cost me about .2-.4 seconds depending upon gear; with 6 upshifts per lap that's one full second that I could cut in half.
01-31-2012, 01:55 PM
762
There are also other opportunities to work on setup outside of the road course environment. While autocross may not be the end all be all of setup for a road course car, if you can work to get a car to put down power properly in such a technical environment it will help for a more open one.
Can I get a track-map with sectors so I can make sense of that thing?
02-01-2012, 11:28 AM
Sharpie
Trea, watching your tach is fun. I know how boost feels on the top end, you're moving.
02-01-2012, 02:20 PM
SirHustlerEsq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpie
Trea, watching your tach is fun. I know how boost feels on the top end, you're moving.
Yeah, these gears are great. 1-5 is a touch tighter than a 5-speed/4.30, then 6th is a touch taller than the standard 5th gear by running 3600rpm at 80mph.
I like watching the tach through Gut Check. Remember that I have old tires on...it was scary as hell. I went through that corner a few times without braking and just breathing on the throttle to load the car on entry and I'd tell myself, "there is no way I'm doing this every lap". It might be easier on fresh tires.
