Printable View
The National Tours and Pros finally offer a Street Tire (ok Road Tire) class, and all I hear is crickets chirping when I look at the registration list for the TX Tour and the TX Pro. You all need to sign up, and come on out. The Tours and Pros are fun events, feature better competition than you will typically find at local events, and we need to show the National Office that there is decent interest in these classes.
See you there....I hope!
National Tour same weekend as NASA.
Might make the Pro but not happy about all street tire in the same class.
It appears as though the National Office may be looking hard at changing the rules to run - drum roll please - STREET TIRES in STOCK class. What a concept. Personally (and this is just my opinion), smaller local Stock class fields may be because of allowing expensive R-comp rubber. Our "Tire" PAX class is pretty big, and maybe some of those folks would go to their appropriate Stock class if they could be competitive on true street tires (even the stickiest of 140-rated tires).
In "Chris' World" we'd have Stock running street tires; Street Tire running popular "streetable" mods and street tires; and Street Prepared running slightly more mods and R-comps.
Thoughts?
I thought you had launch Control? I don't, and look forward to seeing if I will be able to make up for the 60' deficit I will have to the WRX.Quote:
Originally Posted by ken o
I am not sure I am in your world yet. I happen to like things like C5 Z06s on Hoosiers. I would probably like my car on Hoosiers too. I really see no reason why street tires on stock cars cannot be a separate class. Unfortunately, rather than presenting a street tire class as a separate entity, it is set up by the National Office (at least in my mind) as a "put-up or shut-up" proposition to those who do favor elimination of r-comps in stock. For this reason, I believe it is destined to be a short experiment. This class will make an interesting comparison to the National Street Tire Challenge format - which as you know allows pretty much anything on street tires PAX'd appropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmchris
Using National events to gauge interest in stock cars on street tires is flawed. The people that attend National events are heavily into autocrossing and willing to spend the money on Hoosiers. The drivers that would prefer to have street tires in stock classes are not the people that attend National (or even Divisional) events. The only way to guage this is to do so on the local level, which is not likely to happen unless the national office decries that stock classes run street tires.
I agree with rpmchris, except that we should possobly leave R-comps to Super Stock.
The problem is, in my opinion, some folks at the national level appear to be ready to gauge interest in the street/stock philosophy based on attendance at National events. As with anything, there are good arguments on both sides of the issue. Setting this whole street/stock philosophy aside, my hope is that even if Road Tire participation is below "expectations", the National Office recognizes there is sufficient interest in the Road Tire Class to keep it alive as a class (as opposed to a philosophy) providing a place to play for folks like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
I think about ½ of the guys that run R-comps in stock at the national level do so because they have to in order to be completive. The other half just like them, or they get a few sets free each year.
The last few years I have voted with my feet on R-comps, and have not done any national events. Now that I have a place to play on street tires I plan on doing a Tour and Pro this year.
The PAX based class is far from perfect, but I really don’t think we could expect them to drop R-comps without a test run, and making 9 new stock classes would be too many. At this point in time, I think PAX based classes are the best option.
LC is not a fan of repeated launches without cool down driving time. Unfortunately 45 seconds avg 35mph is not cool down time.Quote:
Originally Posted by slates
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/whining.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by ken o
Nonsense
1. The launch advantage from AWD over RWD isn't much. It's a few tenth which doesn't count for much on a 90 second course.
2. All of the AWD stock class cars aren't super competitive in their classes anyway.
Launch control does not make you launch ANY faster. It just makes you very consistent and takes away one thing to think about.Quote:
Originally Posted by slates
And actually OEM launch control might actually launch worse once you add super sticky tires and weird alignment settings into the mix.
When did Ken go blonde?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
Perhaps you just haven't seen a well driven DS-indexed WRX on street tires. One such car won overall at two of the four NSTC rounds last year. Beating that car straight up is a challenge, without giving away any time on the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
Drapes don't match the carpet.Quote:
Originally Posted by TxCoyote
90 second Pro Solo? Show me where that happened.
That is a mental picture I wish I hadn't seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ken o
Just imagine the bitching about RS3 availability and size choices if stock goes to 140+
So, how long before Hoosier reclasses the A6 into a 140 tire?? :)
Actually he's seen it in a GS Subaru before ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by slates
I hope they leave the stock classes alone for now. It seems to me that the Street Tire/Road Tire pax classes are achieving the goal of providing a competitive venue for stock cars on street rubber. Actually, I think they are more interesting than open classes with only 2 or 3 cars. So long as they are using the pax index, it seems to be competitive.
For a lot of cars running on street tires would suck. An Elise, Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, M3, Evo, STI, etc. will just shred street tires and not be able to put down hp worth a damn. The ST* cars are modified extensively to maximize street tire grip/handling. For Miatas and other light cars its not too tough, but the bigger/heavier/high HP seem to give-up a lot on 140+ tires.
You remember that time you drove JJs car? 90 seconds, it is the average length of most pro solos. In fact the last time we had a Texas sized pro solo it was around 120 seconds!Quote:
Originally Posted by ken o
Four events is not enough data to draw a conclusion from, especially if the other NTSC courses were anything like the one in Texas.Quote:
Originally Posted by slates
The first time I ever drove on rcomps was in that car. It was eye opening!Quote:
Originally Posted by ratt_finkel
I definitely agree that higher hp cars give up more on 140+ tires than lower hp cars. But I believe the issue of lighter cars having a special advantage on 140+ tires is more complicated:Quote:
Originally Posted by OZMDD
In stock class bigger/heavier cars tend to be able to run much wider tires than small/light cars. But in street touring each class has a maximum limit on wheel and tire size. Regardless of whether you're in a heavier or lighter car, everyone is on the same 4 patches of rubber. This makes it very advantageous to have the lightest car in your class. Past that I don't see any special advantage light cars have on 140+ tires.
I was thinking each side was a course. Yes, it was 90 seconds with two 60 ft times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
Why not keep consistence? If SCCA is going to have a AWD, FWD, and RWD at the NTs why not have them at the Pros? Has STU/BSP taught us nothing of what AWD can do?
There are 30 more data points for you to look at from last year alone at the Milwaukee, Chicago, and WAI websites. There are not many AWD cars on street tires down here, but there are a lot of them up north. More than enough to draw a conclusion from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidss
I love tires. Street tires, DOT racing tires, radial slicks, bias slicks. I love to smell new tires and sometimes even bring new tires in the house to counter the stinky plug in air fresheners my wife tortures me with. I love mounting tires on rims and even bought my own Coats 4040 tire changer so that I can change tires in my free time. I have four sets of wheels and tires for my car and I change periodically like changing shoes. My happiest days are when the UPS driver shows up with a stack of new tires. I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion except a general opinion that people should use the tires they like.
I don't think any single region makes a good frame of reference for National Level classing decisions. I'm sure Milwaukee is a great region, but their data is not very helpful without knowing the other factors like course style, site conditions, driver quality/consistency, etc.
If you looked at TX Region data and the Tour and Pro here last year, you'd conclude that the NC is a dominant STR car! Then came Blytheville...
I really have no idea what you are talking about with National classing and Milwaukee. The discussion was really about whether AWD cars have an advantage with the PRO format, and to David's point whether any of them are classed competitively. In the case of a DS WRX, it is classed competitively, and to Ken O's point on street tires it will have an advantage on launches compared to conventional RWD cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by OZMDD
Im talking about the SCCA National classing for RT vehicles compared to the ProSolo all-in-one classing. As for Milwaukee, you brought it up, as you do in 9/10 threads.
I like your style Andy. I think Hoosier should make scented candles. It would give new meaning to burning rubber, and they would make your house smell like money.
smell like burning money?Quote:
Originally Posted by mwortham
I have nothing against Hoosiers, I just don't like paying for them. When I started thinking about handing the starter a $20 bill every time I started it seemed kind of craze.
Robert,
That isn't how the tire contingency works. You only need to put a card in the box. I think I'm going to change my work assignment to starter from now on. Please disregard my statement about putting a card in the box.
Thanks,
The starter never told me that!
He just smiled and told to go when it was time.
Precisely. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
I don't like paying for them either. But that's what motivates me to go faster!
It must motivate quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mwortham
I run Goodyear racing take offs at about $40-60 per tire. Two sets will last the season on my car even with a heavy dose at Mineral Wells. He has Hoosiers too.
JB Tire (John Berget)www.jbracingtires.net
I used JB for my first set of hoosiers. Was not a good experience...
I asked for 285 A6s. He said they had a set with about 80% tread for $700. I got sent to me 285 R6s. I called him up and he said nope, that's what you asked for (why would an AXer want R6s???). I had to pay shipping to get them back to him AND pay shipping for the A6s. I got A6s...but in 275. And then after just five 60 second runs the shoulders were corded. In the end I spent nearly $900 for tires I used for a weekend. I could have dropped about $300 more and had brand new ones and made them last 4x as long.
Caveat emptor...
I've bought 4 sets of Goodyears from him and they all looked great and lasted a long time. It is certainly a risk whenever buying used but you pay your money and take your chances.