I was looking around at roll bars and found this one and was unsure if I should purchase it or not
because I dont know if it is autoX legal. Does anyone know the answer to that?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-Miata-...d#ht_925wt_896
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I was looking around at roll bars and found this one and was unsure if I should purchase it or not
because I dont know if it is autoX legal. Does anyone know the answer to that?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-Miata-...d#ht_925wt_896
It may be or may not be legal but I don't like looks of it. Spend the extra money and get a harddog. It will be money well spent.
That's slightly better than the standard mousetrap rollbar (look how close the "supports" are to the main hoop).
A harddog will be about double that new, but far, far safer (and stiffen the chassis up quite a bit).
Agreed. I would avoid it. And can someone please point out the 5th point to me?
For autocross roll bars are not required in stock, street tourning and street prepard classes but still a good idea. If you have one they have to meet the roll bar rules for the class you run in.
Top Speed is local. if you're curious, go see it in person...
Thanks for the info. I have seen it in person just today and while it does look and feel sturdy it does seem too far close to the center of the car for mounting points. I work here at Top Speed and I was just trying to find out info on it because I have no idea and I didn't want to put something on my 99' miata that would not stiffen up the chassis and be as safe as a hard dog. Does anyone know where I am able to find a local that sells hard dog roll bars?
Does it mount to the top of the package tray, or go through if down into the trunk?
I think you will have to order the harddog if you want it.
I am going to go outside and see how to mount it up right now.
Here is the SCCA autocross roll bar rule.
BAR STANDARDS
A. BASIC DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS
1. The basic purpose of the roll bar is to protect the driver in case the
vehicle rolls over. This purpose should not be forgotten.
2. The top of the roll bar shall not be below the top of the driver’s helmet
when the driver is in normal driving position, and shall not be more
than six inches behind the driver. It is strongly suggested that the
roll bar extend at least three inches (3”, 76.2mm) above the driver’s
helmet. In case of two-driver cars, both drivers must be within the roll
bar height requirement, however only one (1) driver must be within
six inches (6”, 152.4mm) of the roll bar. In a closed car or an open car
with a removable OE hardtop which is equipped with a roll bar/cage,
it must be as close as possible to the interior top of the car.
3. The roll bar must be designed to withstand compression forces resulting
from the weight of the car coming down on the roll structure,
and to take fore-and-aft loads resulting from the car skidding along
the ground on the roll structure.
4. The two (2) vertical members forming the sides of the hoop shall not
be less than fifteen inches (15”, 381mm) apart (inside dimension).
It is desirable that the roll bar extend the full width of the cockpit to
provide maximum bearing area in all soil conditions during rollovers.
The roll bar vertical members on formula cars and other single seat
cars with a center driver position must be not less than fifteen inches
apart, inside dimension, at their attachment points to the uppermost
main chassis member.
5. An inspection hole of at least 3/16 inch (0.1875”, 4.75mm) diameter
must be drilled in a non-critical area of a roll bar member to facilitate
verification of wall thickness. This should be at least three inches (3”,
76.2mm) from any weld or bend.
6. It is recommended that steel gusset plates be used at all welds. Gussets
should be at least two inches (2”) long on each leg and 3/16
inches (0.1875”, 4.75mm) thick.
7. It is recommended that roll bars be coated only with a light coat of
paint. If, however, a roll bar should be chrome-plated, it is recommended
that the structure be normalized.
8. Post or tripod types of roll bars are not acceptable.
B. MATERIAL
After 9-22-85, aluminum is not an acceptable alternate material. Cars
using aluminum roll bars or roll cages must file proof with SCCA® Technical
Services that the structure was approved prior to 09/22/1985 as
provided in this section.
1. The roll bar hoop and all braces must be of seamless ERW or DOM
mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent, or alloy steel
242 — 2012
S
CC
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®
N
a
t
ional
S
olo® Rules
tubing (SAE 4130). It is strongly recommended that roll bars not be
constructed of ERW due to quality and strength concerns.
2. The size of tubing to be used shall be determined on the basis of the
weight and speed potential of the car. The following minimum sizes
are required and are based upon the weight of the car without the
driver.
Vehicle Weight (lbs)
Tubing Size (minimum)
outside diameter x wall thickness (in)
Over 1500
1.500 x 0.120
1.750 x 0.095
1000 - 1500 1.250 x 0.090
Under 1000 1.000 x 0.060
Dimensions are nominal. 0.005” (0.127mm) variation in wall thickness
is allowed.
3. Each mounting plate shall be at least 0.080” (2.03mm) thick if welded
and 3/16” (0.1875”, 4.75mm) thick if bolted. A minimum of three (3)
bolts per plate is required for bolted mounting plates.
4. All bolts and nuts shall be SAE Grade 5 or better and 5/16” (0.3125”,
7.94mm) minimum diameter.
C. FABRICATION
1. One continuous length of tubing must be used for the hoop member
with smooth continuous bends and no evidence of crimping or wall
failure.
2. All welding must be of the highest possible quality with full penetration
and will be subjected to very critical inspection. Arc welding, particularly
heliarc, should be used wherever possible.
D. BRACING
1. It is recommended that braces be of the same size tubing as used
for the roll bar itself.
2. All roll bars must be braced in a manner to prevent movement in
a fore-and-aft direction with the brace attached within the top onethird
of the roll hoop, and at an angle of at least thirty degrees from
vertical. It is strongly recommended that two such braces be used,
parallel to the sides of the car, and placed at the outer extremities of
the roll bar hoop. Such braces should extend to the rear whenever
possible.
3. It is suggested that roll bars include a transverse brace from the bottom
of the hoop on one side to the top of the hoop on the other side.
E. MOUNTING PLATES
App
endix C - Roll
B
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r
St
anda
r
ds — 243
1. Roll bars and braces must be attached to the frame of the car wherever
possible. Mounting plates may be used for this purpose where
desired.
2. In the case of cars with unitized or frameless construction, mounting
plates may be used to secure the roll bar structure to the floor of the
car. The important consideration is that the load be distributed over
as large an area as possible. A backup plate of equal size and thickness
must be used on the opposite side of the panel with the plates
through-bolted together.
F. REMOVABLE ROLL BARS
Removable roll bars and braces must be very carefully designed and
constructed to be at least as strong as a permanent installation. If one
tube fits inside another tube to facilitate removal, the removable portion
must bottom on the permanent mounting, and at least two bolts must be
used to secure each such joint. The telescope section must be at least
eight inches in length.
G. INSTALLATION ON CARS OF SPACE FRAME AND FRAMELESS DESIGN
It is important that roll bar structures be attached to cars in such a way
as to spread the loads over a wide area. It is not sufficient to simply attach
the roll bar to a single tube or junction of tubes. The roll bar must
be designed in such a way as to be an extension of the frame itself, not
simply an attachment to the frame. Considerable care must be used
to add as necessary to the frame structure itself in such a way as to
properly distribute the loads. It is not true that a roll bar can only be as
strong as any single tube in the frame.
H. ROLL CAGES
It is recommended but not mandatory that all cars utilize a roll cage as
defined in the applicable section of the Club Racing GCR.
I. ROLL BAR PADDING
Braces and portions of the main hoop subject to contact by the driver’s
or passenger’s helmet, as seated normally and restrained by seat belt
and harness, must be padded with a non-resilient material such as
Ethafoam® or Ensolite® or other similar material with a minimum thickness
of one-half inch (½”, 12.7mm).
244 — 2012
Track Dog Racing sells Hard Dog rollbars locally. I don't think they keep them in stock but can have it shipped to the shop or directly to you. They can also answer any questions you have.
One question about the one on ebay. will it work with a hardtop? from the pictures it looks pretty tall. may work with a softtop but not a hardtop. When I bought my HD from track dog William talked me into getting the hardtop version even though I had no plans of getting a HT. good thing he did because 6 months after installing it I wound up with a HT.
I am unsure if it fits under a hard top or not being that I dont have one (yet). After 4pm today I am going to do a full install with pictures to show how the install goes and what it looks like better than what we have posted on our eBay ad.
Robert: Thanks a bunch for those rules! I have been meticulously reading through them and so far I think that it meets all the basic requirements. I hope that it does because those HD roll bars are rather expensive.
The 5th point is the point where your head impacts the bar when it rips loose in a rollover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob®
haha That's kind of what I was thinking. Does that even count as a 4pt bar since the sides are attached to a single mounting plate in pairs like that? And those single-plane plates make me think there's no way the rear legs make it anywhere near the trunk. Screams glorified style bar to me.
If you guys are selling it as it fits under a hardtop, should you not know that already?! Unless I misread "Compatible to Hardtops & Soft Tops" that's pretty misleading on your part.Quote:
Originally Posted by pyro4826
The one I don't think it meets is the material. I don't see 304 stainless as an option, but I may just be missing it.
So was your original post and follow-ups a commercial for Top Speed? I hope not. ::BigWhackQuote:
Originally Posted by pyro4826
::Ban::
no no guys. it is not a commercial for top speed. i am just trying to find out info on it cuz i personally dont know. i am wanting to put it in my car but if it doesnt meet the requirement for SCCA then i am not.
If no one thinks that it can meet SCCA requirements or think that it is safe then I am going to TopDog saturday to get a HD bar. I need something to attach my racing harness to.:D
So if a potential buyer were to ask a question about hardtop compatibility on the eBay ad itself, what would you, as a company, say?
It looks as if it just mounts to the package shelf. Wouldn't it just punch through to the gas tank in a rollover?
I was told that it somehow goes under the package shelf like you remove it or something. I am going to try to instal it in a few hours to see. If it does mount to that then yeah it would punch through, but if there is some framing there then it would be ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrj512
Go with what it says on the site. I am new here so I dont know everything yet. Also I wouldn't have a reply too because on here I don't think I am allowed to advertise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob®
That begs the question, why not ask someone that has worked there longer?Quote:
Originally Posted by pyro4826
I did try asking and they say that it will fit, but I have an odd feeling that it looks off height-wise. I am one of those people that need to see it to believe it. If I could get my hands on a hard top just for a second to check that would be awesome and all questions on height answered, but alas, I do not know of anyone that has a hard top.
Exactly. Ask the person that posted the ad where s/he got that info. I see under a dozen employees shown on your site, I highly doubt it'd be that hard to track down whomever posted the ad. Just very very off-putting to see an employee of a company ask about an item another employee posted for sale, especially saying they don't believe it themselves. Being new here - or there - or not, that just doesn't seem like a good business approach. But now we're off the topic of the thread, so I'll give up. Hope it works out for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel
It does not just attach to the package shelf. You can tell by the way that there is clearly about 10" below the harness bar, but the harness bar sits about an inch above the parcel shelf in the installed picture. It is similar in attachment as the Harddog Ace, (pictured below) with a few differences... 1) the front and rear attachments are tied together (not a bad thing IMHO), and 2) it does NOT tie into the side of the seatbelt tower like the HD (which makes the Harddog better IMHO)
Ebay Bar:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Mazda-Miata-M...9Sw~~60_58.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Mazda-Miata-M...p4Q~~60_58.JPG
Harddog Ace:
http://www.flyinmiata.com/Store/images/20-38000-1.jpg
I did ask the original poster of the ad. He says it fits. And there are only 8 of us here.
thank you Titus for that find
If it mounts inside the trunk, it probably is not a bad design. I would still go with one of the harddog bars that tie into the seat belt tower.
How do the welds look on it? Where is it made?
The welds look good, nothing that looks off at all on them. From the looks of it I think that I could just weld my own part that bolts onto the seatbelt tower also. It is made by Top Speed. There is a factory that we use I cant remember if it is China or Japan.
Shitty welds can be ground down and chrome plated to look real nice. The thing that worries me about the eBay bar is that it doesn't tie into the seat belt towers. That would at least give you some extra fore-aft bracing so it wouldn't rip out and mousetrap you if, god forbid, you actually had to use it.
I would hold out for a proven, name-brand, Amurrican roll bar because I'd like to survive a violent rollover in case I have to dodge a rabid raccoon and end up flipping into a ditch.
Another option would be to buy the ebay roll bar and then modify the mounts.
"Shitty welds can be ground down and chrome plated to look real nice."
The thing that bothers me about a weld that looks real bad on the outside is it’s probably just as bad on the inside. I know that’s not always the case, but it does not inspire confidence in the guy that did the welding. The one place I don’t want a bad welder is on a roll bar.
I am not saying that’s the case here. I cannot see it well enough to tell.
To save like $100 and end up with a questionable bar though? Since his/her company is selling it, I'm sure their cost is about $30, but the basic HD M2 Sport is $10 more than the listed eBay price. And you *know* the quality of the bar, no modifying anything needed. If s/he absolutely has to have an SCCA-approved bar, the M2 Hardcore hardtop is $130 more than the listed eBay price ($215 more after shipping), but again you *know* the bar is good and SCCA-approved. If s/he buys the one listed and modifies the mounts, there is still a chance that it's no good so s/he needs to start over anyway. Just seems like wasted time, effort, and money for little chance of coming out ahead.
I did think about modifying the mounts to it but I dont know anyone who welds or have the money to spend on taking it to a shop. With further investigation though I have found out that the tubing is 1.75" OD and 16 gauge. I am not too sure but I know the size tubing is right on OD but I don't know about the gauge. I think I might just spend the extra money on the M2 Hardcore since it is SCCA approved. Thanks for all the input guys.
Is it time for the "If you have a $10 head, wear a $10 helmet." comment? The "price" seems to be better, but the "cost" after a crash could be much more than I'm willing to pay. I have a HDHCDD.
I have the Harddog Ace in my car (bought it from Trackdog), it clears both tops just fine and does not foul the seat belts at all. The eBay looks taller, maybe it's just the pictures.....
If you're looking to stiffen the chassis, go with the Hard Dog Sport or Hard Core. The mounting locations give them a farther reach than what the Ace or that Top Speed bar will do.
I have the hard core in my DD and the sport in my brother's car. I like the way the sport bolts to the seat belt towers.
Another thing to look at is package tray access. Not sure about the top speed, but with the hard dog bars I still have plenty of room to put random stuff back there when I need to.