My buddy is dropping a new blinged up motor into his spec this weekend. I'm not sure yet if he needs help, but if he does, anybody wanna help?
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My buddy is dropping a new blinged up motor into his spec this weekend. I'm not sure yet if he needs help, but if he does, anybody wanna help?
Damn... I would but the other half has plans for this weekend.
RJ
I hope it's not another one of those hi-compression ones like we've seen before......... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin'Screw
Isn't that against the rules???Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Who's going to tear it down to check? :shock:
There are no random checks like NASCAR.
No idea on the compression. Not that I would tell if I knew. :lol:
Easy tiger. Do you know the whole story?Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Well, for those of us that don't have a clue... anyone care to share the details as to what in the hell you guys are talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilSpeeder
There seems to be two levels of spec this year in SPEC. Rumors are that several teams are using juiced engines. The changes are undetectable by the current NASA/SCCA Spec inspection processes, but significantly improve performance. I suspect this will continue until NASA or SCCA start looking into engine internals.
Several other classes require sealed engines from a specific supplier to control this problem.
I wish they would do that!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin'Screw
What is the typical cost for a sealed engine like the Miata’s? $2000? $3000? $5000? I am sure there are concerns that it would drive up the price to get on the track. It may not be a big deal for some of the more serious/competitive racers, but the big appeal of SPEC Miata for many is the fact that you can get a car on the track for very little money. Currently, a do-it-yourself guy like CM will likely get out there for under $10k. A sealed engine would likely drive up CM's cost to get on the track by 25% or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin'Screw
Well,
A F500 Sealed Rotax Motor is about $3000. The juiced engines are running over $8000 - $12,000 (from what I have heard). So my gut feeling is that a sealed 100-105hp (Basically a junk yard motor with new fresh internals and valves) motor would cost significantly less than a juicing program.
The idea of SPEC miata is to keep the cost down. By allowing the juicing for the benefit of the few, the NASA and SCCA leaders have really gotten away from the Spirit of Spec. I don't know if they are overwelmed with the popularity of SM and this wil narrow the field or what. The FUN of racing is getting a bunch of cars with a very similar setup testing the driver's skill. It's no fun to have a select group of cars getting 15 - 20 more HP. I have shyed away from SM because frankly I cannot afford the engine programs.
SPEC is now "SPEC"
I think the SCCA should steal an idea from the dirt-oval playbook and have a $1,000 engine claim rule.
In other words, an SM competitor is required to sell his or her engine to any other competitor for $1,000. If he/she refuses, they are disqualified from the race and are not allowed to come back until they agree to sell it.
This will end the "juiced" engine problem- I doubt you could build a good high-comp Miata engine for $1,000, so the cheaters in the class will not be able to afford to give away their engine after every race- and if they CAN afford it, it will eventually level the playing field. :D
Any thoughts?
The problem is that, to some drivers, it is "win at any cost", and there are a good number of those that have the mean$ to do that. For the rest of us, it's frustrating. Some cheat to stay up with the big boy$, while some of us would never consider that option..... Neither NASA or the SCCA have the man-power to police a class as large as Spec Miata. The most ironic piece to this puzzle is that some of the cheaters are good enough to win without it, which I just don't understand...... :(
I *like* the $1000 rule :twisted:
I will be in this for the spirit of it... not for the nastiness of spending tons of money to tweak out every ounce of HP from the engine.
I've even declined offers from more than one person to help me port & polish the head before I put it back in. I want to stay within the rules and play fair. I know I'll get my ass kicked in racing but that's mainly because I'm a n00b.
In looking at the costs of putting the car together I think I'll have the most money spent on the roll cage and the paint... after that will be suspension setup... everything else will be nickle/dime compared.
It just seems that in every good thing there are a few @$$wipes that like to break the rules and screw everyone else in the process.
RJ
Building a car within the rules and going out and driving my a&& off is what racing is about for me. The problem with engines in SM is that the rules are very poorly written. Adapting the rule set from showroom stock worked great while the class was taking off. Now that it's the largest class and growing (and going national) it's far beyond time for some revisions. ANYTHING other than a sealed motor system means that people WILL take apart their engines and tinker to try to make them better. If you're not doing that and you expect to be competitive, you're crazy. You're also crazy if you INTENTIONALLY build an illegal car. Situations will arise along the way where the rules will be grey and you might get bitten. Situations might also arise where a small mistake in one of the allowed modifications renders the car illegal. It's possible that this won't be noticed until it's too late.
I think sealed motors is a great idea! It would save everyone money in the long run and would help even the playing field even more.
Speaking of dirt track . . . I remember a process of filling the combustion area with premeasured liquid to determine the size. Do it at TDC and you should be able to tell if the compression is not in spec. Filling was done through the spark plug hole = no tear down.
Hey CM, make sure you have plenty of spare, straight body panels to replace the ones that get wrecked during racing...
I figure that some of the unnamed folks 'round these parts will have extras of multicolored panels :lol:
The real $$$ is going to be in paint!
3Bean? You taking your hunt for lightness to a new level? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
I can't see why you would want to spend a lot in paint... I would go for a $300 paint job to start with... Unless of course you are budgeting for a new paint job after each race! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by channelmaniac
Have you been to a race yet? It's really really close. Sometimes a little too close!Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
CM, if you're looking to save money on painting costs (and unless you're made of money or own a body shop, I can't see spending big bucks on a Spec Miata paint job) you might contact your local high schools and/or community colleges, and offer your car up as a practice piece for auto body shop classes.
...or paint it with a paint brush! I had so many colors of red on Speedie, that I forgot which was the real one :?:Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
#13 was the best looking SM in Texas when it was Laguna Blue with gold and white graphics, but after two years of SM racing there were four different shades of blue. Finally I took a page from ES's team and went FLAT Black. It is easy to keep it in tip top shape color wise with rattle cans. I had MAACO shoot it (and two extra front fenders). I think just having the two brand new fenders painted with 13 SM already on them hanging up in my garage, wards off the evil people who use to hit me (or the ones that MADE me hit them.) Sort of like every time on the golf course I open my umbrella and put my rainsuit on it stops raining. But let me get those pants pulled back off over my golf shoes and fall down and get dirty the rain starts right back up again.
Sealed SM engines would cost more then buying a $4200 Sunbelt. Guys like Merv can still beat most with a good junkyard motor. I would hope that at some point a set of specs can be written an adopted that would allow a local motor builder to build a motor that is equal to the Sunbelts. I don't know if that is using Touring guidelines as a basis or what. My self, I could have a blower in my SM and I am going to make enough mistakes in a sprint race to still not run with the fast guys. Now in an enduro, I usually get my timing down and get where I can repeat fast laps. Maybe that is caused by the objective of an enduro being to keep the car going and not to NEED to try to be too fast asin a sprint race..
So my suggestion is go with a basic (easy to match) paint job.
I still have not figured out a way to hide my turbo in Spec. Any suggestions? :lol:
This is a fundamental problem with many sports. In baseball, it's not cheating unless you get caught. Guys like Phil Nekro are legends for their ability to cheat. They are not shunned, but held up as heros. Nascar and other race classes basically follow the same mantra.
SM needs to put in place strict rules that make cheating nearly impossible, or at least make it so cheaters gain only small increases that keep the sport reasonably competitive. SM is an entry level race program designed to let people enjoy competitive racing without going broke.
Nitrous would be a lot easier to hide. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin'Screw
I really know nothing about SPEC Miata other than what is talked about here, but it sounds like the sport is growing to the point that a tiered system might be in order. Something like having a Development Circuit running before the Big Boys. The Development Circuit could allow junkyard engines, while the Big Boys would use sealed engines. 3 Development finishes in the top 30% of the field and you are required to buy the sealed engine and move up to the big boys. This would achieve several things, including keeping cost down for the new guys, evening the playing field for the Big Boys, dealing with the growing number of cars, and getting the inexperienced drivers out of the way of the Big Boys. It is probably completely un-realistic, but as I said, I really no nothing about SPEC Miata.Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin'Screw
Yes, and a $4200 engine would pretty much be a breaking point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin'Screw
RJ
The difficult part about a tiered system is gettng track time. The race weekends are pretty crammed full between practice, qualifying, racing and DE.
Not a bad idea though.
I think sealed engines could be provided for about $3-4000. And you should be able to get a competitive season or two before the engine would need to be refreshed again.
Thanks for the confidence, Mac, but I've never run with a junkyard motor.....YET ;) Speedie was one of those "good" cars from the factory, and I had tons of seat time, which has more to do with going fast than anything else. I hope to get back in that position later this season..... I may try and do the TMS race in May, if I can find an inexpensive ride.Quote:
Originally Posted by IPRESS
If you couldn't afford a $4200 engine, then you probably have no business thinking about competing in wheel-to-wheel racing on anything more than a very part time, ad hoc basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by channelmaniac
I have a friend with an ITS car. It's a moderately competitive car, it's a relatively durable car, and he doesn't even race the full Southwest Divisional schedule. Still, he went through seven $800 sets of race tires last season, plus a transmission rebuild, plus entry fees (typically $200-300 per race weekend), plus fuel, plus brake parts and fluids, hotel costs for out of town races, food, etc, etc. He didn't even have to replace any body work last season, didn't have any large scale mechanical failures, didn't have any damaging off track excursions, yet he still estimates he spent over $10,000 racing last year, just on tires, entry fees, fuel (both for the car and the tow rig), and other miscellaneous costs.
Keep in mind that figure doesn't include a single penny towards building the car to begin with.
Wheel-to-wheel racing, even at the grassroots level, is very expensive. That's why I keep myself content with autocrossing and the occasional DE, although I'd be tempted to look hard at something like Formula Vee or karting if and when I felt the urge to compete wheel-to-wheel.
That's the very reason why I gave up my Spec Miata ideas. The misconception that SM was affordable was what had suckered me in the first place. Affordable is a relative term...Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
After doing the math, it was just too out of reach (for me, anyhow)...
Yes,
Affordable is a relative term... and yes, I know about a lot of those costs.
For me, it's a learning experience... and partly something I just want to do. I figure if it helps me be a better driver and I can have fun doing it then there ya go.
I know it will cost $$$ but who cares if I put a JDM/Junkyard motor in rather than spending thousands on a crate or a built motor? Who cares if I build one up myself?
I don't care if I place in the top 10 (or 20, 30, 40, or even dead last) for racing. If I dent every panel on it that would be fine too... I figure that if the car gets totaled then I can handle that too... Some people are just too damn serious!
RJ
Perhaps... but I couldn't have remained married and SPEC racing... :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by channelmaniac
:cat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
(You knew it was coming)
These are Miatas we're talking about! You don't have to spend a lot of money to race a Miata. They are very reliable. You can build one for $7-8000 and run mid-pack if you're a decent driver and have more fun than you'll ever have at an autocross. I've rented three average Specs(nothing high dollar) the last three years and my average finish was seventh out of 30+ cars, and expect I can do even better when I build my own and finally get some seat time again.
I kept good records on Speedie and just happen to have them here today. A typical race weekend (1 practice session, 2 qualifying sessions, and two races equals about two hours of track time.
Tires: good for maybe 12 heat cycles+ some extra practice sessions @ $600/set = three race weekends.
Brakes: front pads - 16 hrs Rear pads - 22 hrs rotors - 32 hrs
Fluids (Redline synthetic): engine oil - 5 hrs diff/trans - 10 hrs
Front hubs - 55 hrs
Rear wheel bearings - 100hrs
Head refresh - 60 hrs
Engine rebuild - 120 hrs
Clutch - 60 hrs
suspension: ball joints - 60 hrs bushings - 120 hrs
Anything else was caused by "incidents": fenders, a-arms, fenders, tie rods, fenders, bumpers, fenders, door, and DID I MENTION fenders!
Average annual track time - 24.5 hrs
Average annual miles - 1745
Average speed - 71 mph
Average cost - I don't want to know........
True... and that's why I currently enjoy modding the hell of out my car without worrying if I'm still going to be within my class rules! :twisted:Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Just don't tell that to the guys in STS2 at SCCA meets! :twisted: :wink: