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Just for fun and to possibly start a nice debate:
Which would be a faster track car at MSR or Hallet:
Spec or MSM?
Obviously MSM is faster in straights, but is Spec suspension superior to MSM?
Which would be a better track car for having fun out on the track?
Hope to explore this personally in the future...
Drivers being equal, I would bet on the Spec...
Lighter, tighter suspension bits, smaller diameter wheels...
I would also think the spec would be better setup for the track that an off the dealer lot MSM.
It might be a pretty close race. A really good shoe could probably throw the MSM around enough in the corners to take advantage of the power difference. It would be fun to watch as the SM would eat it up in the corners and then on the straights the FI would give the MSM the power to pass.
For fun factor it is the SM any day. For track day I don't know as passing on straights is the rule and the SM is a "late breakers delight" for passing in the corners. Running my SM at MSR sometimes is frustrating as we almost have to scare the big bore street cars into letting us pass and get away from them.
Mac
Spec Miata would kill it at MSR and Hallet.h
Not even a real good comparison. I would estimate at the Ranch there would be about 6-7 seconds differents in lap times, even with a good driver. The MSM is a nice handling car, but leans way to much. A good set of Tein FLEX would help considerable. I think with the big 17" wheels, any suspension lowering would improve the apparance, way to much air between those fenders.
Gary
First of all, you're talking apples to oranges..... We've got a pretty good baseline on Spec Miatas at MSR. Track record is a 1:25.9xx, with a dozen or so consistently in the 1:26's. I don't know of any lap times on a MSM, so if someone has some, let me know, or let me throw a set of Toyo RA1's on yours and we'll see....... FYI, Sunny (92 Miata with 190K+ miles) with the RA1's ran a 1:30.2xx the last time out with stock brake pads. Should probably get a 1:29.5 if I put the HP+'s on. Based on that, I see no reason that an MSM with nothing but RA1's shouldn't be able to run at least a 1:27.
More fuel for the fire, The last season in Speedie, Tim and I were within a few tenths every race weekend, with Tim in SSB form and Speedie in SM. That's stock suspension in SSB, so add thirty HP and tires, and the MSM should be even faster with a bit of tuning...... Remember that the fast Spec Miatas have been well sorted, which is worth a couple of seconds. Put that same effort in an MSM and you're now in the 1:25's.
Same thing at Hallett, as it's a similar track. The TWS long course or TMS Roval, I give the MSM another second advantage :) Bottom line, a Spec Miata is the most bang for the buck, no question!
Yeah, but now you're adding modifications to the MSM... both cars being in the stock* form, the Spec would have to spank the MSM.
But, if as you say, put into both the same suspension, weight, and tire mods but leave the motors alone, of course the MSM would have a huge advantage in the straights with 30+ more horse.
*Stock meaning a MSM right off the showroom floor and a Spec up to the current year's rule book.
I'm going to have to go with Merv on this one. The SSB cars and SMs run pretty similar lap times, and the top SSB cars are typically "showroom stock" '99 Sports, with the factory suspension package. The MSM is marginally lower (which should allow marginally more camber when properly set up), and stiffer than a '99 Sport, and it has much better acceleration, plus much better balanced ABS brakes. The MSM is at a disadvantage to the '99 Sport in autocrossing, where low range throttle response and shorter gearing hurts it, but these two things aren't as big an issue on a road course.
Give an MSM comparable tires, a comparable driver, and dial it in to the same level as a top SM or SSB car, and I think the MSM would be marginally faster... at least until the rinky dink little stock intercooler completely heat soaked. :mrgreen:
I'm still waiting for someone to volunteer their msm....... :drive:
Well I'm not volunteering.. but I'm taking mine to Hallet in a few weeks... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Any offers of suggestions to "dial it in" would be appreciated... :scratch: I'll be running well worn 205/45-16 V700s. Not RA1s, but not street tires.
What lap times do spec cars run at Hallet, anyone?
Fastest SM laps this season:Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7gslse
4/17 1:32.7
5/14 1:32.2
Last year SSB:
7/04 1:33.9
Damn, my Hallet record is 6 seconds off that....I need more $$$ :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
I think what makes Merv so damned fast is TONS of seat time...Quote:
Originally Posted by icepenguin66
Maybe I'll shoot for that... I'm trying to remebr what I was running in my 1st gen, and I believe it was like 1:36 or 1:38... (of cours eI coudl be way off)Quote:
Originally Posted by icepenguin66
eitherway.. I'm notthat great, so don't expect me to be the best judge of how fast an MSM can go.. ;)
My best in the '99 Sport two years ago was 1:38.6, in C Stock trim on 225/45-15 Ecsta V700s. You oughta be able to beat that with the straights at Hallett... :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7gslse
Yah, I know. I'm getting lots of seat time to learn but need to quit breaking stuff and get my car running 100% again. I'm canning the FM springs and busted AGX shocks before I go to Hallet June 4. I just tuned my air meter a bit so the 1.8 swap is running great now!Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
Can't wait to see how it does on the track, I've made noticable improvements lately at Hallet so maybe I can get close to 1:38's.....although I'm putting stock 96 suspension on...
:shock: If you had an M1 in the 1:36's you must have a lot of seat time at Hallet! I think I'm getting pretty good at Hallet now and my best in the 90 with front sway, FM springs/AGX, rear chassis brace on v700's was 1:39.90Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7gslse
I think he is talking about a 1st gen RX-7, not an M1.Quote:
Originally Posted by icepenguin66
Quote:
Originally Posted by icepenguin66
1st gen Rx7 set up in CSP trim. stock port 13b, fullexhaust, GC 350/175# Illuminas, 235/45-13 V700s.. At the time it was probably ~130rwhp and ~2300lbs?
Merv's saying what i said earlier. In the right hands the MSM would be a good match. You have to know that I am SM biased, but the right guys (SSB experience) can throw those stock suspension cars around those corners pretty good. With that said it is just like my specmiata.com sig says "Nothing Corners like a Spec Miata".
If you ned any off track or spin testing done on that MSM call me, Merv can do the other heavy work!
Mac
Well, it's not quite what the spec records are at Hallet, but given how the car was setup I think I did pretty fair... 1:36.9 was the fastest... had about 6 laps in my last session that were under 1:37.3..
(FM DP, enthuza XR, 9psi, 205/45-16 V700s)
FWIW, the MSM cooling system doesn't handle a track day well on it's own.. 3 laps at speed, then one cooling lap were pretty much required to keep from pegging the temp needle.
There was a SCCA T3 setup car (rented for the day) running about 1:39-1:40 on 235/40-17 RA1s.
Was the T3 car a silver MSM? There was one running in the COMMA event in March but I don't remember the times it ran.
Yeah, I'm sure it was probably the same car... Ti MSM with a lighter silver hardtop. Stock 17" MSM wheels....Quote:
Originally Posted by IPRESS
Apparantly it "lives" in one of the garages out there at Hallet for various events/rental car.