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All this chatter regarding roll bars the past few days got me thinking seriously again about getting one. I'm just wondering what those of you who do have one have? And those of you who want one want?
Found this on the :batman: board -
http://www.96k.com/miata/rollbars/
PS
Anyone in the market for a black Frenzy TT style bar (complete with optional Zoom Zoom sticker)?
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...9/439697_5.jpg
I want the one Flyin96M has in his car, with the cool tan padding! 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by sammm
http://www.harrisonindustrial.com/im...I/IMG_0355.JPG
Have: black HD sport and Autopower.
Want: stainless HDHC and stainless duece with center rear brace.
When I put one in (yeah, I'm undoubtedly going to have to be a lemming and put one on, if only to appease the PCA Safety Nazi's :roll: :wink: ), it will be a Hard Dog M2 Sport Bar -- no diagonals, but with a harness tab. And I'll undoubtedly do what rx7gslse is doing… get it unfinished, so I can powercoat it to match my Twilight Blue Mica car.
Why the HDM2SB? I like the way the M2 Sport does not impede rearward vision, and with the top up it’s virtually “invisible”. Manwhore… I mean Majik… has one too, and if I’ve gotta have those big, fugly pipes poking up all over the clean lines of my car, that one’s the least offensive :pukel: .
The only other one I’d consider is the Boss Frog double hoop bar, which by the way is [apparently] legal for SCCA. There's a lot of metal there, but the seat-backs hide most of the bar. A bonus with that one would be that it would not affect my ability to put the top down or up from my drivers seat...
I have the M2 Sport w/ harness tabs. It will accept the robbins window top if you ever decide to upgrade your top.
Chris
I've got a Racing Beat Style bar in the garage, and a custom M2 HDHCDD with extra third diagnol and harness bar (aka Burly Bar) Of which I'll have neither after I sell the '97. If I do it over again, M2 HDHCDD with harness tabs and without all the extras.
I have a SSHDM2DD and I like it.
The hardcore comes forward too much for my taste.
The SS is expensive but looks shuuuweeet! I need to pad it though. :(
M2 Sport, double diagonal with harness tabs shipped out today on the way to my house...
Still debating, but probably end up painting it rather than powdercoating to get the finish to better match teh exterior of the car...
Maybe 2 week away?
I have the HDHCHTDD bar and love it. It's got the harness bar already welded in so I don't have to worry about that when I buy a 5/6 point belt.
Installation was easier than I thought it would be... if you need to borrow a 12" 3/8 drill bit, let me know.
I'd recommend against that. Paint will not hold up nearly as well. A good powdercoater can get you pretty close.Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7gslse
yeah, I know powdercoat is a lot stronger... but barring a roll... I don't really expect to be bashing into this thing a whoel lot....
I've got a powdercoat guy to go talk with still, so we'll see what we can do on color.. I know I can get the paint to match....
I've seen painted rollbars and I'm not impressed. Over time they do get scratched. I don't know if it's the top frame or seatbelts or what but painted rollbars will chip and get scratched.
YMMV
Harddog Sport
Next time there are 2 things I will do differently:
1. Tabs (the installer's invoice says w/Tabs - he must have ground them off. )
2. Install it myself :banghead:
In the installer's defense, I said I'd never need tabs :cry: and with my new $50 CG-Lock, maybe I won't :roll:
Depends on who does the painting and/or powdercoating. Hard Dog's powdercoating is pretty crappy, but the powdercoating Billy Howell had done on his bar (the Burly Bar that BigD is talking about) was much nicer, and a lot more chip resistant than mine, which was powdercoated by Hard Dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by droptop
As for painting, Riggs Rylander on the Outlaws list had his bar painted over the original powdercoat without removing it from the car, and it looks very nice. It's been pretty durable so far too, at least that's what he said the last time I talked to him about it.
The double diagonal bars don't impede rearward vision much at all. Can't say the same for the single diagonal bars, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
I've got the Hard Core Double Diagonal. It does work with both the hard top and the soft top, but I had to fabricate custom side latches for the hard top to get it to work in conjunction with the Hard Core bar.
Jon W. has the Sport Double Diagonal, and I like it in his car. His works with both the soft & hard tops, and - more importantly - works with the factory hard top side latches without modification.
About passing tech... that all depends on where you're running and who is doing the tech. The "real life" answer is that if you can get head clearance under the "broomstick line" with a helmet on with the Sport bar, you'd probably be passed for tech at most events, even though the Sport is technically not built in a manner that would pass SCCA GCR (General Competition Rules) or PCA Club Racing specs, since the tubing diameter is too small.
Honestly, if I had it all to do over again (and I could get head clearance under the bar), I'd probably go with the Sport bar. It sits a little further back, so there is less risk of head injury in a rear-end collision on the street, it interferes a little less with seatbelt retraction, and it works better with the hardtop. It also looks beefy enough that you'd likely pass tech at any event that required a "real" roll bar (in almost three years of racing the Miata, I've yet to have anyone at any safety/tech inspection pull out a pair of calipers and actually measure the diameter of my tubing to see if I'm legal). Unfortunately, the top of the main hoop is also about 1.5 inches lower than the Hard Core, so I probably wouldn't be able to get completely under it with a helmet on, even with a race seat. The only other downside to the Sport bar is that it requires a little bit more interior panel trimming, but that just means taking a little more time getting it right.
I don't know much about the powedercoating that comes from hard dog... but generally powdercoat is pretty indescructable...Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
But that being said... sure you *can* scratch up paint a little easier, but I think I'm still going to go that way... Since I'm getting it unfinished the guy is going to do the full acid etching, prep and all of that, not just spraying some color onto it.. I'm sure it can be scratched still, but chipping shouldn't be an issue or things along those lines.. Besides, if I don't like that, it's not hard to go back and get it powdercoated anyway.... Powdercoat over paint is no issue..... getting smooth paint over powdercoat is a bit tougher.
Just a thought...are you going to put any padding on the bar? If so, you might rethink what to paint and/or powdercoat.Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7gslse
Boy, I don't want to open of this can of worms, but you are confusing me again alt (and we all know how easy that is to do :wink: ).Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
This whole "broomstick test" and "tube diameter" thing has been thoroughly discussed on the pointy board, and this thread seemed to summarize things a bit. From what I read, the "broomstick test" is rarely used, but that the only real requirement is that your helmeted head be under that line (they suggest that your helmeted head be 3" below :shock: ... but that's only a suggestion). The HDSport bar is shorter than the Hard Core (so that may be an individual concern), but as long as you fit under it, you'll probably not have any problems [passing tech]/
More importantly -- and to the point of this post -- I believe the Hard Dog Sport bar does comply with GCR requirements, both with regard to tube diameter and number of bolts in the plate. The tube diameter for the HDSport (and Boss Frog Double Hoop, and the BSP bars, and the Autopower bars...) is 1.5", which meets the minimum requirements, and all [claim to] have at least 3 bolts. Am I missing something?
I'm so confused. The last thing I want to do is chop up my Miata installing a rollbar, only to find out I could be denied entrance into an event because my "safer" Miata does not meet the requirements...
From the 2004 PCA Club Racing Rules, Appendix A:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
These are the rules used for open-topped car rollover safety requirements at all Porsche Club of America DEs. So, to answer your question, the Sport bar would not technically be legal for a PCA-sanctioned DE. If I'm not mistaken, the SCCA GCRs (General Competition Rules) use the same tubing requirements. So unless you put your Miata on a serious diet, the Sport bar wouldn't technically pass safety inspection at any event that used PCA or SCCA GCR safety guidelines for open-topped cars.Quote:
Minimum roll bar tubing sizes (over 1500 lbs): 1.75" x.120" wall (mild steel)
Atlain is correct... I talked with the guys at HArdDog the other day and his comments were:
a) the hardcore bar is same basic design as teh sport bar, but does use the thicker tubing regired for roll "bars" on open cockpit vehicles by teh SCCA (and I guess PCA?)
b) the sport bar uses a slightly smaller tubing. This is the same tubing thickness that the SCCA requires for roll "cages" installed on road racing vehicles. No clue why they say one or the other, both I suspect to be more than adequate, but rules are rules.
And even though I probably *should* I'm not really intending to pad it as of now... the taller seats on the '04 actually go up several inches above where my head contacts the headrest, so I'd have to fly up and back to smack the rollbar...
I may change my mind once I see how it's installed, but that's my plan for now.. If I do need to pad it, I'll just pad teh main hoop and cover it with a black w/ red stitched panel. that part is still TBD.
I have a sport and I have NEVER been denied to a track event.
YMMV
I see your point about PCA DEs (and I'm guessing AX and TT as well). The bar is clearly supposed to be 1.75" in diameter in order to pass tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
But as for SCCA, from what I read in Fastrack (see "page" F64, top of the right-hand column) the minimum SCCA GCR diameter is 1.5" x.120" wall... the same as the Hard Dog Sport Bar (and all the others I mentioned). There are also requirements about the mounting plate thickness and number of bolts (see Appendix C, Section B, Items 3 and 4). And there is a support tube angle requirement as well (see Appendix C, Section D, Item 3), and a suggestion (but not a requirement) to have a diagonal brace. I'm assuming ( :shock: ) that the Sport Bar has the appropriate plate and bolts, and I know the Sport Bar has those supports. Now, those supports are bent (in order to accomodate the glass window on the NB/M2 I think), so then the question becomes does that bent support bar "legally" meet that 30degree angle bit. That might actually be the rub. Otherwise, I think the Hard Dog Sport Bar is SCCA GCR legal.
Now I'll be the first to admit I'm not up on all the rules, so I could definitely be missing something. And I realize that you are not likely to fail tech -- at least at a local level -- as long as you have a nice sturdy rollbar (not just a style bar) and your helmeted head is under the top of that bar. I'm just looking for the answer. That's why I keep asking you guys... who know better/more than me!
The SCCA has just "revamped" their website as of this morning. This link should actually get you to the Fastrack archive you've referenced (since I can't get your link to work).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel
In light of that Fastrack, it appears that the SCCA has changed their roll bar requirements. When I bought mine (before April of '03), the minimum acceptable OD for roll bar tubing for a car over 1500 pounds was 1.75". It appears that the Sport bar might indeed be legal now, although you'd have to get a clarification on whether the bent support tubes were legal.
droptop, that's why I made the comment that I'd never had a tech actually pull out a set of calipers and measure the diameter of my bar. It's also why I said that I'd be willing to bet that the Sport would pass any tech inspection, even if it doesn't meet the letter of PCA Club guidelines. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by droptop
Thread summary: Kestrel wants to be like Majik....
Has anyone been allowed to participate in any Dallas area events with a HardDog Deuce? Has anyone been turned away?
We don' haf nun uv dem new fangled bars down in da sowf! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Titus
Guess I may have to be the guy to play dumb and try to get past inspection with it!Quote:
Originally Posted by droptop
They let people play autocross with Frenzy TT's here, so a Deuce shouldn't be a problem.
Great! I here some regions are very strick on SCCA compliant or nothing. People have been told that they need to remove them to compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
What kind of event? What do you want to do? Many of the Autocross clubs don't even require roll bars as tailchaser mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
Even though they "don't require roll bars," Texas region SCCA has been known to fail cars at tech because of unsafe roll structures. Normally, this is like being pulled over for no front license plate - it's a good excuse when you don't want to get in to the real problems.
As long as the roll structure doesn't look like it's installed with drywall screws, doesn't have any rust, and doesn't give the impression it could fly out of the car and hurt someone, I wouldn't expect problems.
Since the Deuce is obstensibly a roll bar, marketed as such, and designed as such (even if it is funny looking), I would not expect *any* problems with it in this area.
I am interested in trying out a few Autocross events and perhaps a club style track day. I attempted to get involved in this sort of thing here in Sacramento, but I was turned off by the “Holier then thou” attitude that I got from the organizer. For a guy that has never even seen a track, this is not what I was looking for. From the little time I have spent on this board, I get the feeling that I would be welcomed in despite my lack of experience or understanding of the terminology.Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
Todd
Thanks Tailchaser. You are the first person that I have heard from that felt the Deuce was funny looking. I have heard plenty of comments about the Boss Frog being a little strange :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by tailchaser
Let me add this about the Deuce. I was considering this bar until I saw a picture of a car with driver. The bar only cam up mid way on the helmet :shock: so I decided this was not the bar for me. I was told it was short, but man why even have a bar.
You certainly would be. The way I look at it, we were all newbies once, and if I'd had someone around to show me the ropes and help me out, it would have made the learning curve a lot shallower when I first started out in motorsports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
There are plenty of track events around here per season that wouldn't have any problem with the Deuce in your car, although they might insist you run top up (no comments please, Kestrel :P ). There are some that might have issue, but we'd be happy to steer you towards ones that would accept you (and your car) "as you are", so to speak.
As for autocrossing, the bar won't be a problem with any of our local clubs.
Bar height complaints sound kinda funny coming from someone who owns a Sport and not a Hard Core. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Flyin96M
Well this doesn't look as tall as what Flyin96M has in his Car. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain
http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...18_10_full.jpg
BTW. Nice Car Titus!
THANKS!Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing
Indeed - that's a nice looking Sunburst! :thumleft:Quote:
Originally Posted by POS Racing