Domestics vs. Imports: What Would It Take?

Here's some depressing news:

As sales continue to tank for the domestic automakers, production follows right along with the trend. So far this year, plant downtime is running nearly double what it was in 2004, with predictable impact on the bottom line of the Big 3. It’s a heck of a situation to be in, as the workers get paid whether or not they’re building cars, so it comes down to simply writing off the lost productivity, or building cars that will collect and need to be sold off as leftovers in whatever next summer’s big sales event happens to be. “New products” coming next year are said to be the hope for reversing the trend. Now, I don’t want to get too snarky, but, uh, haven’t we been pinning our hopes on the upcoming “new product” for about four years now?

I actually don't share the author's cynicism about GM/Ford/Chrysler's "new products." I find many of the new domestic cars to be very appealing, and it looks like the domestics may have turned a corner on the "new product" front. The question is: why aren't people buying them?

Consider the following choices:

1. Fusion vs. Accord or Camry
2. Solstice vs. Miata
3. Cobalt SS vs. Civic Si
4. 300C/Charger vs. Maxima/Avalon
5. Cadillac STS vs. Merc E-Class

In each of these cases, I would be heavily tempted by the domestic offerings because, for the first time in my lifetime, they appear fairly evenly matched with the imports.

A look at "future product" indicates even more goods news:

1. Dodge Caliber small car
2. European Focus (think Mazda3)
3. Saturn Aura
4. Saturn Sky
5. Mustang Shelby GT 500

And so on. These are inherently appealing products, even without deep discounts. So why aren't buyers interested? Is it a perceived quality gap? Resale issues? A "fool me once" mentality?

Believe me: I'm not an domestic car booster. I've owned imports all my life, and both cars in our garage were actually BUILT in Japan. But I could certainly see my NEXT car being a domestic. What about you? And if not, why not? ::StirTheP

S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by srivendel

A "fool me once" mentality?

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In 11 years of marriage, there has been 1 domestic car in my garage. In 11 years of marriage, there has been 1 lemon in my garage. :rolleyes:

Acura Integra
Nissan Stanza
Nissan Sentra
Honda Civic
GMC Jimmy
Mazda Miata
Mazda MPV
Nissan Murano

Heh. You said "Jimmy".

S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by srivendel

Believe me: I'm not an domestic car booster. I've owned imports all my life, and both cars in our garage were actually BUILT in Japan. But I could certainly see my NEXT car being a domestic. What about you? And if not, why not? ::StirTheP

S.

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The domestic manufacturers need to realize that they are going to continue to fail until they can build cars in every market segment that not only match up, but surpass the competition.

Why will most smart people still opt for an Accord if GM is selling a comparably priced Malibu that's just as good? Because Honda has a proven track record of relibility and ease of ownership that GM doesn't. Nor will the domestics change that perception overnight. Just like Honda or Toyota, they'll have to produce good quality products that work and last for years before they develop that long term reputation for quality. People don't buy Hondas or Toyotas because they're cheap, or because they offer great discounts, or because they're "just as good" as the competition. They buy Hondas and Toyotas because their last Honda or Toyota or their neighbor's Honda or Toyota or their friend's Honda or Toyota lasted for hundreds of thousands of miles.

I really don't think the domestic companies have the kind of long term strategic vision and patience required to get there. They'll try to compete on quality and innovation for a few years, maybe half a decade, than they'll get impatient with the pace of change in public perception of their products, and they'll go back to selling cheap, deeply discounted crap.

Would I buy a domestic car? Sure, if it was a better car. So far, I really haven't seen Detroit produce anything that does more than compare favorably to the competition... and that's not going to be enough to overcome their poor product legacy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titus

In 11 years of marriage, there has been 1 domestic car in my garage. In 11 years of marriage, there has been 1 lemon in my garage. :rolleyes:

Acura Integra
Nissan Stanza
Nissan Sentra
Honda Civic
GMC Jimmy
Mazda Miata
Mazda MPV
Nissan Murano

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:rolleyes: And why do cars become lemons? Cause the previous owner treated it like a pos.

I know everyone likes to bash domestic cars, but as far as reliability goes, Ford and GM cars can take a beating and keep on running. The rest of the cheap ass car may fall apart and look like shit but they keep running.

Of course nothing compares to a Civic...a friend's mother drove one for 5 years without ever changing or adding oil...nothing was damaged and still ran great!:shock: OTH, my parents recently purchased 98 Maxima is starting to seem like a lemon...not the same quality as my 89 Nissan truck.

Back on topic eh...
Even though I have 2 NA Miatas, I would pick the Solstice hands down over the NC. I'm very disappointed. Of course we are mixed about the look whenever a car is redesigned, but it is just not growing on me. They killed a lot of the visual personality much like Dodge did to the new Viper, IMO. Not to mention the 4 cup holders and cheap visors, etc.

I've been in a lot of the new Ford/GM cars from either friend's purchasing new cars or rental cars from traveling and I am very impressed with the quality. Although GM interiors are not going to be as eloquent as BMW or Benz, they are very nice. Guess they finally realized that they cannot compete outside of the economy car market with cheap economy interior quality.

Ive never had any problems with my focus. However the motor and drivetrain were built in Germany.

Another comment - the domestics are aiming at ther Japanese... while I think they should be more concrenced about the Koreans. Everyone laughed at Honda and Toyota thirty years ago, and the Koreans are poised to do to the Japanese what the Japanese have done to the domestics over the last couple of decades.

Go drive a new Sonata back-to-back against a new Accord and a new Impala. Then tell me who's on top, who's going to be a threat in a decade, and who just doesn't have a clue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by altiain

Go drive a new Sonata back-to-back against a new Accord and a new Impala. Then tell me who's on top, who's going to be a threat in a decade, and who just doesn't have a clue.

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A good point, but the Ford Fusion is priced right on top of the Sonata, and significantly below the Accord/Camry. I'd take the Fusion over the Sonata every time. Hell, just look at them:

http://www.fordfusion.net/fusion.jpg

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...37032.1-lg.jpg

If Ford were charging Accord prices for the Fusion, then I agree: Honda wins. But for $3-4,000 less (sticker) it becomes a very different equation. The domestics don't need to match the Japanese sticker prices to survive in the short term, but they do need to sell their cars for close to MSRP. I think Ford can do this with products like the Fusion and new Mustang. Chrysler is certainly doing it with the 300C/Charger/Magnum (I know, they're owned by Daimler, but still).

Are the Koreans becoming a threat? Absolutely, but Hyundai, for all of its improvement, is still lacking that certain something that makes a product truly desirable.

If you ask me, it's VW that's completely lost in space. $29,000 for a JETTA with 200hp?! ::Blink:: $38,000 for a PASSAT??? ::Fart::

Riiight. Who buys a $38,000 Passat instead of a 3-Series?

S.

Not to harp on the Passat issue, but here is a photomontage illustrating the point:

$38,000 buys you...

http://photos.velocityjournal.com/im...at1767404m.jpg

Or, this:
http://www.germancarfans.com/news/20...118.013.1M.jpg

or this:
http://dailymotoring.myblogsite.com/...ger%20SRT8.jpg

or this:
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/...tt/pp11332.jpg

The Passat looks like a fine car, but VW is out to lunch on their pricing.

S.

Consider the following choices:

1. Fusion vs. Accord or Camry
2. Solstice vs. Miata
3. Cobalt SS vs. Civic Si
4. 300C/Charger vs. Maxima/Avalon
5. Cadillac STS vs. Merc E-Class

My reply..........

1. Fusion = Mazda6
2. Solstice is way too heavy.
3. Cobolt SS does not handle nearly as well as the Si
4. OK, maybe......
5. Merc is smoother, quieter, better handling, and more polished.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by srivendel

Hell, just look at them:

http://www.fordfusion.net/fusion.jpg

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...37032.1-lg.jpg
S.

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The only difference is the BACKGROUND!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by icepenguin66

:rolleyes: And why do cars become lemons? Cause the previous owner treated it like a pos.

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In 18 months and about 25k miles (I think we bought it with 55k and traded it in with 80k), we had the Jimmy in twice for the AC compressor working its way loose and causing havoc, once for a freeze plug going bad, and once for a new alternator. The transmission also developed intermittent issues near the end. We opted to trade it in rather than deal with the transmission issues.
In comparison, I got the Integra when I was 17 with about 40k miles and kept it for 6 abusive years running it up to 203k miles. The only non-maintenance items where alternator brushes at 150k and a leak in the heater core at 185k.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMerv

1. Fusion = Mazda6
2. Solstice is way too heavy.
3. Cobolt SS does not handle nearly as well as the Si
4. OK, maybe......
5. Merc is smoother, quieter, better handling, and more polished.

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1. True, but other than the MS6, I'd rather have the Fusion. Probably comes down to personal preference.
2. I agree, but I'd have to drive them both to be sure. I'm amazed that there is an American product that can even pique my curiosity vs. a Miata.
3. Good point. The European Focus ST (which should be here soon) would be a better comparison.
http://www.garagedujura.ch/New-Focus-ST-Web.jpg
5. Maybe, but the Caddy is more reliable and $9,000 cheaper. :shock:

Look, I'm not saying that American cars are as good as their rivals, but I do think they're class-competitive, and that if you take price into account, the analysis gets pretty interesting.

S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by srivendel

Look, I'm not saying that American cars are as good as their rivals, but I do think they're class-competitive, and that if you take price into account, the analysis gets pretty interesting.

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I agree the American manufacturers have turned the corner. (They were forced to or faced going out of business) With their recent history, they are now forced to be better than the competition if they want their market share back to what it was in the 70's (and earlier).

Korean cars? Maybe a threat... but they do have to convince many American buyers that their quality is better... We had a 98 Kia Sephia that was purchased brand new... we traded it off at 42k miles and by then had the following problems:

1. New wiper motor
2. Wiper arm recall
3. Replaced driver's side taillight assembly (fell apart!)
4. Fuel pump relay recall
5. New starter & flywheel (starter had a flat spot & chewed the flywheel)
6. Starter relay recall
7. New windshield washer pump
8. Metal shavings on the dipstick every time you checked the oil (dealership said nothing was wrong with the car :confused: )
9. Failed speaker in the passenger door - my wife DOES NOT crank the volume!
10. Rattles in driver's side door that took 3 visits to cure
11. Turned brake rotors to fix warping...
12. Replaced rotors to fix warping...
13. Replaced rotors again to fix warping...
14. Replace rotors with a different part number to finally fix warping... (Dealer said Kia's policy was to replace the rotors twice before putting the new part # rotors on)
15. Replace transmission due to a blown internal seal (dealership knew there were lots of transmission problems... replacement unit was "upgraded")

So I'm not afraid of the Korean car makers at this point. I do believe that the US car makers have built cars of much better fit, finish, and quality than they have in years. They also have better price points on many vehicles - they just have to convince the consumers now, but since they are the "home teams" they should have a bit of an easier time doing that.

With that said... I sure did like the Ford full-sized trucks better than the imports and voted with my wallet.

RJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by srivendel

1. True, but other than the MS6, I'd rather have the Fusion. Probably comes down to personal preference.
2. I agree, but I'd have to drive them both to be sure. I'm amazed that there is an American product that can even pique my curiosity vs. a Miata.
3. Good point. The European Focus ST (which should be here soon) would be a better comparison.
http://www.garagedujura.ch/New-Focus-ST-Web.jpg
5. Maybe, but the Caddy is more reliable and $9,000 cheaper. :shock:

Look, I'm not saying that American cars are as good as their rivals, but I do think they're class-competitive, and that if you take price into account, the analysis gets pretty interesting.

S.

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Has Ford reversed their position on the Euro-Focus over here? Last I read, the American Focus was going to soldier on as is until the next model redesign, instead of us getting the 2nd gen Focus that's been on sale in Europe for two years now. :rolleyes:

Regarding class-competitiveness, see my first comment in this thread. As long as the domestics don't offer anything significantly better than the Japanese do, a lot of people (like myself) probably won't be interested. When I can take my chances on an American product, or buy from a Japanese company with a proven track record for long term durability and resale value retention for the same money... well, there's a reason that there are two Hondas in my garage right now.

Kia has gotten better since 98', Hyundai has gotten WAY better since 86' the new Sonata has gotten great reviews.

Don't count them out, they're taking up a segment of the market and that will continue. I'm surprised Suzuki still sells cars.

I think the US does a better job with v8 rwd cars and trucks, but leave the little cars to the Japanese.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by altiain

Has Ford reversed their position on the Euro-Focus over here? Last I read, the American Focus was going to soldier on as is until the next model redesign, instead of us getting the 2nd gen Focus that's been on sale in Europe for two years now. :rolleyes:

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Good question. My understanding was that we would be getting the European Focus in 2007, but some quick online research indicates that I am incorrect. ::Censor::!

S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMerv

Consider the following choices:

2. Solstice is way too heavy.

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Hmmm....its not that heavy IMO. Considering the many goofy items on the NC, the Solstice is a very good toss up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMerv

5. Merc is smoother, quieter, better handling, and more polished.

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I wouldn't exactly agree with that. I have a friend with a SL600 another friend has a SL55 and the new awd STS. He likes the Caddy just as much and often more than the Merc.

Perhaps this should be in the OTM forum???

http://channels.netscape.com/autos/s...105ford_recall

What quality problems? :(

YAY!

More cop cars that burn down on their own!

</sarcasm>