Moving the '94-'97 Miata from C Stock to E Stock

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05-25-2004, 05:30 PM
altiain

Moving the '94-'97 Miata from C Stock to E Stock

Hmmm... the July Fastrack has the following proposed class changes submitted for member comment:

-Move 94-97 Mazda Miata from CS to ES.

-Move 4 cylinder BMW Z3 from CS to ES.

-Move Porsche 914 1.7/1.8 liter 914s from CS to ES.

Since the current "car to have" in ES is 12 years old and not getting any younger ('93 MR2), I think I could support this decision, as it breathes a little more life into E Stock.

In addition, the Stock class structure is getting a little top heavy, with a lot of popular cars rendered non-competitive in SS, AS, and BS. I suspect that some of them will filter down to C Stock eventually, and what are now C Stock and E Stock will likely be merged in the not-too-distant future to make more room for the SS, AS, & BS underdogs. Whaddaya think?
05-25-2004, 05:45 PM
sammm

Re: Moving the '94-'97 Miata from C Stock to E Stock

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

Whaddaya think?

I think it sux! :banghead: I bet it forces more drivers in to the STS2 class. It's going to be even tougher to keep the vintage Miatae competitive outside of street tire class (inside too to a degree). POS what's your take? :?
05-25-2004, 06:16 PM
tailchaser

Oh, come on... The difference between C Stock and E Stock in the PAX is .25 seconds per 30 seconds of course.

We all know that POS's take will be buying a '97 M.
05-25-2004, 06:36 PM
general default

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

We all know that POS's take will be buying a '97 M.

I think Mick is out trying to find a 98' R model ;)
A black one of course.

That will keep him busy for some time...
05-25-2004, 07:19 PM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by general default

Quote:

Originally Posted by tailchaser

We all know that POS's take will be buying a '97 M.

I think Mick is out trying to find a 98' R model ;)
A black one of course.

That will keep him busy for some time...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/det...23439&s=57 But it's white...

Got it done General! :salut: :shock:

I guess it make sense to move the early 1.8 cars to ES, wonder when they will make that official? Looks like I need to start looking for a big block barn door car! :wink:

Here is a Black '98
05-25-2004, 07:31 PM
onething

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Here is a Black '98

If you buy it, I'll go get it and drive it back for you. Really been missing good beer since last Sep. 8)
05-25-2004, 07:57 PM
altiain

Re: Moving the '94-'97 Miata from C Stock to E Stock

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

Whaddaya think?

I think it sux! :banghead: I bet it forces more drivers in to the STS2 class. It's going to be even tougher to keep the vintage Miatae competitive outside of street tire class (inside too to a degree). POS what's your take? :?

That's not particularly likely, methinks. The 2nd gen MR2s aren't legal in STS2 (too much displacement), and there really aren't a whole lot of E Stock '90-'93 Miatas out there to be displaced (you & POS notwithstanding).
05-26-2004, 07:47 AM
general default

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Here is a Black '98

I am impressed you found one so fast. You can find anything on the internet.

ES class is hard to call. I don't think moving the pre 98' 1.8 to the class is a good thing for the class. No problem moving the 914 there. I think they should move the pre 05' cars to ES instead when the new 05' Miata comes out. :P
05-26-2004, 08:07 AM
POS Racing

Do you guys see the 94-97 changing much in ES on the local level? You plug Matt Lucas in an old MR2 in ES and his times are normally right in the hunt in CS, and he can devastate pretty much everyone else that has ES stuck on their doors. BTW he did the same to us last year in an RX7 with a 1.2 liter carbureted stock rotary engine.

How much of an advantage do you think the 94-97 would have over a 90-93 car?

My plans for the '05 season didn't include the current POS Racer, but now the SCCA may give me a cheap alternative to staying in ES.... :cheers:

This time I think I want a red & tan car! 8)
05-26-2004, 11:40 AM
altiain

Heck, with the prices on the '99s coming down so low, you ought to just buy a cheap C Stock car. Chances are we'll be the overdog car in E Stock in a couple of years anyway... you don't want to have to trade up twice, do ya? :wink:
05-27-2004, 08:28 AM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by general default

I don't think moving the pre 98' 1.8 to the class is a good thing for the class.

Please 'splain yourself, why do you see this as bad???
05-27-2004, 11:39 AM
general default

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by general default

I don't think moving the pre 98' 1.8 to the class is a good thing for the class.

Please 'splain yourself, why do you see this as bad???

Maybe it has to do with classing history. The 1.6 folks had a hard time getting separated from the 1.8's to begin with. I think in most cases the sub 98's had much better differential than the early cars. I think that made more of a difference than the HP. When ES got the reshuffle and the MR2 went there it seemed like a good deal. At the time I would say Miata's and MR2's were about equal except at ProSolos. Now it is clear the MR2 can be made better with a great driver and some proven setup work.

Now if you bring the barn door 1.8's in to ES it will be like before the break up. The Miata Ruled. So the people like you that have put in time and money in a 1.6 or MR2 are going to get stomped. (maybe not stomped but beat most of the time) Seems ES is a Happy class with older cars. That was the concept behind ES I think. A place for older stock sports cars to play.

Cars like my 99' may be left out in the cold like the 1.8 barn door cars when the 05's come out. So then people like me will be saying WE need to go to ES. If by some miracle we convinced the SEB that was the case then the 1.6 and early 1.8 would disappear from autocrossing.

Sure there are some forward looking statements here but as I see it ES provides a place where 1.6's cars can be competitive on a regional level.
08-13-2004, 11:14 PM
miata_racer

I wrote my letter in favor of moving all the listed cars down.

My reasoning is at a National level the 93-95 MR2 is the car to beat.
From what I can tell, the upgrades (I believe the 15" wheels are the
biggest improvement) over the 91-92 MR2 is an advantage in itself.
Plus the MR2's development over the last 5 years has made it about
1-1.5 sec faster as well. I was able to jump in a 91 MR2 and be within
0.5 sec (on a momentum course) of my time in my BS Boxster.

Of course my 94 R is also fast in that respect I guess. Unfortunatly, unless
STS2 gets a serious boost in attendance at national level events, I think
it won't be around in 5 years. It looks like a fun class, but the participation
isn't there yet. So I don't know what will become of the 1.6 Miatas.
Probably the same thing as 80% of other cars that are not the top 1 or 2
in its class (competitive in some regions and not others).

----
I doubt they will move any of the M2's down for a while (at least 4 years).
I'm not sure if Mazda will continue this trend of making the Miata
slower and heavier each year. We'll see I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by general default

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by general default

I don't think moving the pre 98' 1.8 to the class is a good thing for the class.

Please 'splain yourself, why do you see this as bad???

Maybe it has to do with classing history. The 1.6 folks had a hard time getting separated from the 1.8's to begin with. I think in most cases the sub 98's had much better differential than the early cars. I think that made more of a difference than the HP. When ES got the reshuffle and the MR2 went there it seemed like a good deal. At the time I would say Miata's and MR2's were about equal except at ProSolos. Now it is clear the MR2 can be made better with a great driver and some proven setup work.

Now if you bring the barn door 1.8's in to ES it will be like before the break up. The Miata Ruled. So the people like you that have put in time and money in a 1.6 or MR2 are going to get stomped. (maybe not stomped but beat most of the time) Seems ES is a Happy class with older cars. That was the concept behind ES I think. A place for older stock sports cars to play.

Cars like my 99' may be left out in the cold like the 1.8 barn door cars when the 05's come out. So then people like me will be saying

WE need to go to ES. If by some miracle we convinced the SEB that was the case then the 1.6 and early 1.8 would disappear from autocrossing.

Sure there are some forward looking statements here but as I see it ES provides a place where 1.6's cars can be competitive on a regional level.
08-24-2004, 08:59 AM
POS Racing

Any new news on possible ES class realignment??
08-24-2004, 09:12 AM
altiain

No announcement will be made until after Nationals. However, the scuttlebutt on the SCCA forums was that the majority of member comments were in favor of the move. Whether that means it will happen... you decide.

Find yourself an R Pack at a steal yet, POS? :mrgreen:
08-24-2004, 09:23 AM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally Posted by altiain

Find yourself an R Pack at a steal yet, POS? :mrgreen:

Nope was just thinking maybe I should start looking. Saw on the pointy board where a guy said the '97 M might be a good choice. What do you guys think?
08-24-2004, 09:25 AM
sammm

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

a guy said the '97 M might be a good choice.

I think I said that sparky! :wink: That would be my car of choice!
08-24-2004, 09:27 AM
POS Racing

http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimateb...c;f=4;t=003773

I like the Ideal of ABS! And the R package suspension bits under the M. (If that's true) Plus it should be easier to find a 95M,96M,97M than the '94 R. 8)
08-24-2004, 10:00 AM
sammm

They sure are purdy! 8)

http://www.haphazard.com/dem/miata/miata2.jpg
08-24-2004, 02:15 PM
altiain

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimateb...c;f=4;t=003773

I like the Ideal of ABS! And the R package suspension bits under the M. (If that's true) Plus it should be easier to find a 95M,96M,97M than the '94 R. 8)

However, they're only suggesting that the '95M has R package suspension bits, not the other M years.

I'd be suprised by this, 'cause the R cars were notoriously rough riding, due to their very heavily damped Bilstein shocks. They make a '99 Sport feel like a '67 Caddy by comparison. :wink:
08-24-2004, 03:29 PM
brock

The shocks and springs may be the same, but after getting to drive a 96R and two "conversions" I have to believe that there is actually something other than just the shocks and springs that are different. The only other obvious thing that I could think of though is the bushings, but we were unable to find any markings on any of these. They were still in the cars however.
09-08-2004, 10:28 AM
POS Racing

Quote:

Originally posted by rchase on Miata.net:
I personally would be surprised if the move did not happen. And it would be effective 1-1-05.

But I also expect it will not do what the SEB hopes it will (and there will be complaints that a car with *relatively* small differences gets two classes to play in) and there will be a new proposal floated in 2005 to merge CS and ES.

(Yes... I know what the differences are. But best of breed in almost any other car model covers a wider delta, no?)

Yikes so how long would it take for the SEB to merge of ES & CS if they can get approval? I hate to go buy another car only to have it obsoleted after one season..... :(
09-08-2004, 01:49 PM
altiain

Could happen as early as 1/1/2006. If someone proposes it and the SEB thinks the proposal has merit, it could go out for member comment next year, like the '94-'97 to ES proposal went out this year. In the case of class merger, the SEB would likely rule on it after the '05 Nationals, and put whatever recommendation is made in place starting 1/1/2006.

Personally, I don't think it will happen that soon. I think you'd probably get 2 years to play in E Stock with a '94-'97 before the class merger proposal happened, if it happens at all.

Still, why not buy an NB? They're still the top dogs in C Stock, and since Mazda tends to roll models out late (the '05s are just now slowly starting to trickle into dealers), the '06 NC probably won't be legal for Stock until the '06 season. Heck, if the rumored power-to-weight ratio of the NC is true (160-170 hp, 2200 lbs), it'll probably go straight to B Stock anyway, leaving the NB as top dog in C Stock. Plus, if E Stock and C Stock are merged in the future, guess which car is going to be top dog in the merged class? '99 Sport. :wink: