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My Miata, a 2001 LS originally had the big brakes, but some unscrupulous bastard swapped them with the smaller brakes before I bought the car. ::BaHump:: This really bugs the A.R. part of my personality that wants everything correct/original (until I mod it ;) ). But the cheap bastard part of my mind wonders if they make a noticable difference in stopping. Anybody have any input? Anyone here driven NB's with the smaller brakes and the larger ones? How did they compare?
I am far from an expert, but here is what my research has led me to believe...Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey of Death
Big brakes can serve 2 functions:
1) more braking force
2) Better cooling
So the question is, do you need either of these things and the answer is that depends. For #1, determine if you can lock up your brakes. If you can, you know that you already have enough braking force. For #2, you look at brake fade. You shouldn't experience brake fade on the street... this will apply more to the track. If you experience fade on the track, you need better cooling to reduce the fade and larger brakes will help you.
Now it is time for an expert to point out where I am wrong.
I'm not an expert, but I do race Miatas, and have never had issues with stock brakes, as long as you are using the correct pads for the application they were designed for. I have never had fade, even with OEM pads. I just have to "adjust" my braking points with them. More often than not, fade comes from boiling fluid rather than the mechanical stuff.
Your car didn't come from, or been "worked on" by Miata Technologies, did it? I've heard that he has used that trick before.....
Having driven '01+ cars with and without the "big" brakes, I think the big brakes are a definite improvement... depending on what you want the car to do. While the smaller brakes do provide decent stopping power, the big brakes feel like they are much less front-biased, which translates into easier threshold braking on non-ABS cars and better modulation under heavy braking.
On the street, you probably won't notice a difference. On the track, you probably will. Are they worth it? You make the call.
Not an expert... but ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
It is entirely possible to get brake fade on the street. Granted, most local LEO's don't like people driving on their streets in the manner it takes to do that ::Curls::
DING DING DING... I think we have a winner!Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Ouch... that stinks.
I work with a person that defends Tom to no end...
Ignorance is bliss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Treibenschnell
We once had a go at it over that nitwit... oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
Hmmmmm... what an insightful bunch of guys! I've never actually said that name in public, have I? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Titus
The car alledgedly belonged to someone else and MT was "helping him sell it". In the process, he apparantly helped himself to a great many parts, replacing them with bits from various NA's. I got suspicious and went to Gary, who helped set me straight on what was incorrect with my car. Armed with that, I was able to convince MT to return the car (mostly) back to stock. Got him to do everything except the brakes and fog lights (even longer story on the fogs...). Once I got all that done, I was going to sell it and buy another, but once everything was corrected, I really did like the car. I got a good enough deal on the purchase ($8k for a 2001 LS with 68,000 miles) that I figured if we missed something, I could probably afford to fix/replace it and still come out ahead. Since then, it has been an awesome car and I have Gary to thank for that. In fact, after talking to Gary this week, I think I'm going to upgrade the sway bars. He also has a set of the correct brakes and that's why I'm debating that at the moment. Just had a birthday and sold one of my motorcycle helmets so I've got the spare $$ to have some fun with the car.
So... sway bar and brakes or a roll bar?!? :D
before i had my 01 LS repo i thought about swapping the big brakes with Bam's smaller ones so they wouldn't go to waste but that never happened... maybe thats the same case with yours. I have had small rotors on my NB before and it did take a longer distance to stop, with the slotted and drilled rotors i noticed all the squeaking from the rain all stopped. Other than that they seem like the OEM big brakes.
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Originally Posted by MadMerv
That is just so wrong.......
Great, that means he's done it to others? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMerv
And if he's continuing to do it, one would imagine that he gets away with it often enough to keep doing it. ::BaHump::
Has he ever gotten caught by anyone else swapping the Torsen with a non-LSD unit? That would be what really tripped him up with me, since I asked specifically if it had the Torsen before I bought it. God bless Gary for catching it! :thumrigh:
Anyway, back on topic! :D
It sounds like the big brakes have more bite (makes sense...) Fade probably isn't an issue for me as I don't auto-x (maybe someday). I guess it all comes down to if the big brakes can stop me in a shorter distance. We all like to think we're excellent drivers and always prepared, but experiance (here especially) has taught me to never underestimate the stupidity of other people behind the wheel. So, shorter braking = good...
What Merv said is very true and probably the best thing to remember about brakes is having good pads. On the other hand with the same brake pad, there is a noticable improvement with the bigger brakes, at least with the NA. I upgraded my 90 brakes to the larger 97 rotors and am glad considering the amount of track time I get. Over summer I had to throw the old smaller pads/rotors on till my new stuff came in and I really noticed the difference.
My ::2Cents::
To add to John's (Monkey of Death) story, he is being too modest; Miata Technology fully known took advantage of John. When John came to visit us he was hearing a wheel bearing sound and an engine bearing sound and wanted us to take a look. When I walked out to the parking lot the very first thing I noticed was the brakes was way to small for an '01, you could not even see the fronts with the factory wheels! I should John the proper rotor for his car and then started the rest of the investigation.
Looking under the car the first obvious was the lack of braces. Most of you know '01+ cars had several center braces and not one was present, not even the U-brace that attaches to the rear end. Then we looked at the differential and sure enough it was a 1.6 rear end, half shafts etc.
Then the question came up about the transmission should it be a 6-speed or a 5-speed? We took his VIN number and called Mazda and sure enough the transmission was swapped to a 5-speed.
Question: If you have been servicing a customer’s car for over a year don't you think you would know that car from top to bottom? And if you are a so called expert in Miatas shouldn't you tell the new customer what is right or wrong about this car?
I am glad John reached satisfaction with Miata Technology, but please;
DO NOT LET YOUR FRIENDS HAVE MIATA TECHNOLOGY LOOK, TOUCH OR SMELL THEIR MIATA.
I hope this example is another good reason to stay clear of this crook.
Gary
::Rant:: Damn! What a crook is right!
:clap: Amen.Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdog
Dang, has anyone contacted the BBB on these guys?Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdog
Just a thought.
It's a miracle the guy stays in business...
Quote:
Originally Posted by trackdog
Damn, I knew the guy was shady and an idiot but not that big of an ass! Makes me feel dirty since I got some used parts from him a couple yrs ago.:-(
Agree w/ most of what is being said, it really boils down to what you will use the car most for. With bigger brakes comes getting brake bias correct. They tend to lock up rears more easily when not dialed in. Pads are first and foremost. Good bite on stock rotor is still alot of horsepower for braking for the Miatas.
Fronts should be alittle more agressive than the rears. Brake fade should be minimum w/ either set-up as these are momentum cars.
I set mine up with a Hard-Dog Double X-bar and harness bar, then did the sway bars. For fun, go w/ sways first, noticeably different. However, noticed a great deal of chassis stability w/ the roll bar first.
Unless you're running race pads like a Spec car you shouldn't have a problem locking the rears up. Very few people are going to need to install a bias adjuster for the brakes, only the hard core racers like Gary. Upgrading to the larger factory rotors is not going to upset any brake bias unless you use different pads in front than in the rear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fain
Yes,
With bigger brakes I would use same pads. Stock rotor set-up can use initial bite w/ fronts stronger. Also I wouldn't use proportioning valve either. My Miata
still has stock set-up, I was just passing info. from others. Initial bite is really all
I'm after for my purpose, but brake fade might be an issue for others using track setups. I have not experienced serious fade yet, my tires usually get greasy first. Also, my time sessions have not been more than 15-20 minutes either. Theirs alot to still learn for me yet.
Yeah, 15 min sessions don't work the brakes too hard...usually enough cool down time in between. I did manage to lock up a front today at Hallett with RA1 tires and Hawk Black race pads! Don't believe I've ever done that before...I have spun/locked the rears before of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fain
Huh? :scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fain
Every Miata I've ever driven had heavily front-biased stock brakes. The '01+ "big" brakes are the best balanced on any non-ABS Miata setup, but they are still front-biased as delivered form the factory. That's just corporate CYA - cars with heavily front-biased non-ABS brakes tend to plow under lockup instead of spinning, and plowing cars produce fewer lawsuits than cars prone to snap spin under panic braking.
Installing more aggressive front pads may make you feel like you've improved the braking by giving you better initial bite and perhaps improving modulation, but I guarantee you that you could shorten your stopping distances by running a more aggressive rear pad, all other things being equal.
Okay, the first paragraph I understand and agree, but the second?:confused: I know some of the Spec guys will use the aggressive race pads up front and use a less aggressive pad in the rear since they are not allowed a proportioning valve. One example, a guy uses Hawk blue race pads in front and HP Plus in rear.Quote:
Originally Posted by altiain