Too Tall, Part II (or New Dog, Old Tricks)

I checked out the new 'No Brainer' Hard Dog bar that Craig pointed me to. Sounds good so far, but I wanted to really check it out. I got the measurements for the cross bars and used a C-stand to hold some broom handles in the appropriate places. It is better than anything else I've seen, but is it good enough? Plus, this has raised other questions that I now humbly set before you all-knowing Miata gurus! ;)

Here are two pictures with me sitting in the car with the seat back in my normal position (I'm in normal driving position in the first and leaned back against the headrest in the second). Keep in mind that I could tilt the seat up a little to get an extra inch or two more. The blue dot represents the top bar (I added the dot so it was easier to see than the stick end). The green is where I could put a harness bar.
http://www.johnlanning.com/RB-1.jpg
http://www.johnlanning.com/RB-2.jpg

Still a bit close, but better. What do you guys think?

I thought about adding the harness bar at about that height for the main reason that the seat would hit it first (or start at rest against it) and, in theory, flex less (although it will compress). This might work as a buffer, keeping the upper part from hitting the top bar, or at least slowing the impact. Obviously padding will still be used! ;)

Merv mentioned lowering the seat, but looking at where my head sits, I don't know that I could lower the seat enough to make enough of a difference.

Now here's another question raised by looking at this (I know, but humor me, I'm new to the whole roll bar thing ;) ). Look at how much higher my head is than the bar. In a flip over, is this going to do anything at all for me? Is this entire debate just a waste of time for someone as tall as myself? I'd like the additional measure of safety, but if it really won't do anything in a wreck, I could spend the $$ elsewhere...

Sorry this is so long. As pricey as these things are, I want to make sure I do this right the first time! Thanks !!

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Originally Posted by Monkey of Death

I checked out the new 'No Brainer' Hard Dog bar...

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Is there a LInKiE available?

Dang that looks really short to me........ Add a helmet and you way above the bar.

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Originally Posted by Monkey of Death

Now here's another question raised by looking at this (I know, but humor me, I'm new to the whole roll bar thing ;) ). Look at how much higher my head is than the bar. In a flip over, is this going to do anything at all for me? Is this entire debate just a waste of time for someone as tall as myself? I'd like the additional measure of safety, but if it really won't do anything in a wreck, I could spend the $$ elsewhere...

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A lot of Miatas without rollbars have rolled over without serious injury to the driver. As I understand it, this is because your body doesn't stay upright during the roll... it falls to the side. I think the danger would come when you add a harness that holds you upright.

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

Is there a LInKiE available?

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Not as such...
Here is the board post with measurements (inside the seatbelt towers, 29 in from the windshield top, 17.5 in up from the deck carpet.
Here are some pics of the unit, unpainted and not bolted in.

As a side, the photos may be a little deceiving due to perspective. Taking a yardstick and setting it on the top of the windshield and the top of where the roll bar would be, the yardstick hits my head about 1 inch down. It looks like there's more than one inch of my head above the bar. So there's a reference point, if it helps.

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Originally Posted by Titus

A lot of Miatas without rollbars have rolled over without serious injury to the driver. As I understand it, this is because your body doesn't stay upright during the roll... it falls to the side. I think the danger would come when you add a harness that holds you upright.

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No plans for a harness. Your body not staying upright makes sense and is pretty much what I thought, but I'm happy to say I don't have any first hand experience with this sort of thing!

http://www.moesrealm.com/img/rollbar/seats_300.jpg
Harddog Sport in a Miata with the surfboard seats, don't see much difference in the height from what you show??? Is the new 'No Brainer' positioned farther back than the HD sport??

You have to remember the soft/hard top is going to be the main limiting factor on any Miata roll-bar. The M2 Sport is right at max. height in that regard. ::2Cents::

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

http://www.moesrealm.com/img/rollbar/seats_300.jpg
Harddog Sport in a Miata with the surfboard seats, don't see much difference in the height from what you show??? Is the new 'No Brainer' positioned farther back than the HD sport??

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You have to remember the soft/hard top is going to be the main limiting factor on any Miata roll-bar. The M2 Sport is right at max. height in that regard.

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My understanding is yes, it is farther back. It also mounts inside the seatbelt towers. This makes it a little narrower and more behind the seat. Thus less likely to bang your head on the side post as well.

As Samm mentions, the tops are the limiting factors. As you go back, you have to go shorter to stay under the top. Looking at POS's picture, the passenger seat looks like it is reclined more like I have my driver's. Looking at that, the Sport does sit higher. When I sat in a car with the Sport, I was using the bar as a headrest. :(

I am getting one of these installed on Tuesday next week by Tom and crew. It is designed off of the deuce but sits .5 to 1 inch higher than the deuce does.

For perspective.

http://www.bethania-garage.com/images/deucebpc5.jpg

With the added .5 or 1 inch I should be ok as I sit lower in the seat that it appears you do despite being 6'3". With a helmet after SFI padding I should be able to fit.

...crosses fingers...

Don't try this at home!

Linky #1!

Linky #2!

No-Brainer????? Inside the seatbelt towers is NOT good. The vertical is almost dead center on your head, not even considering the violence of your head in a rollover. If, in fact, the bar is further back, it has to be lower, as the convertible top tapers down as it goes back.

I see no reason to put a roll bar in the car if 1) you're not going to autocross or do track events, 2) you can't get BELOW the bar. It just won't give you the protection to warrant it. Now if you want to use a hardtop full time, you can gain about two inches, but then why would you want a Miata? I still say lower the seat. The tall guys used to cut some of the foam out of the seat base. Most racers use a seat bolted directly to the floor. I can hardly see over the steering wheel in my SM, but I'm only 5'9"!

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Don't try this at home!

Linky #1!

Linky #2!

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It appears a rollbar would do very little to save you unless you were well below the rollbar with a helmet and snugged in with a tight harness. :punchout:

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Originally Posted by black roadster

It appears a rollbar would do very little to save you unless you were well below the rollbar with a helmet and snugged in with a tight harness. :punchout:

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I'm thinking arm restraints would be a must have also. ::Shocked:

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

I'm thinking arm restraints would be a must have also. ::Shocked:

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I never have understood how they can design a dummy that can tell you about every little force it experiences, but they can't get it to hold onto the wheel.
I've been in a violent multi roll crash, and I had no problem holding onto the steering wheel. And maybe if the dummies could they’d know not to put the airbag exhaust vents nest to your wrists!

I'm 6'1" and I have no problem with the HDHC bar, even with my helmet on.
Of course, I do have Sparco seats.

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Don't try this at home!

Linky #1!

Linky #2!

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That will not help car sales.

That also does not take into account possibility of the roll bar digging into the dirt or bending in some direction. Seem like just a hard top would provide more roll protection on the first or second roll. Assuming a symmetrical roll. The car crashes I have seen on tracks (videos) are not so perfect and a lot faster.

But looking at the pictures you posted it seems your head is way above the roll hoop.

Some days it is nice to be short in height.

http://www.johnlanning.com/bouncy.jpg

Couple of comments...

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MadMerv: Inside the seatbelt towers is NOT good. The vertical is almost dead center on your head

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It's actually a bit to the side ;) .
Seriously, if it were more centered on the seat, wouldn't the seat hit it and come to rest against it, keeping you from going into, or under, the bar and using the seat as cushioning? Just curious...

MadMerv also makes a good point about it not really being worthwhile unless you can get under the bar. I may need to check into lowering options before buying. I'm about 1 inch above, and the bar is 1.75 tall, so I'd have to drop at least three inches, and that would still be cutting it close. The sucky part about that is by waiting I loose the intro discount. 'Course I also don't end up with a bar that's no use to me. Damn, being tall is usually a good thing... :(

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Originally Posted by general default

That will not help car sales.

That also does not take into account possibility of the roll bar digging into the dirt or bending in some direction. Seem like just a hard top would provide more roll protection on the first or second roll. Assuming a symmetrical roll. The car crashes I have seen on tracks (videos) are not so perfect and a lot faster.

But looking at the pictures you posted it seems your head is way above the roll hoop.

Some days it is nice to be short in height.

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Have you seen how they do that test? It's not exactly a real world kind of condition. Also, just because your head comes in contact with the ground doesn't mean it's going to kill or seriously injure you. Not that I want to try it. ;)

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Originally Posted by scmx5driver

Also, just because your head comes in contact with the ground doesn't mean it's going to kill or seriously injure you. Not that I want to try it. ;)

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Yep... I have read 2 threads on the pointy board from people that rolled there car. One was with a rollbar, one was without. Both had head abrasions, but both walked away. That is not to say that the rollbar is useless, as anecdotal evidence implies it has prevented death in some cases (More than one report of rollover death with out a bar, no reports of rollover death with a bar).

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Originally Posted by Monkey of Death

http://www.johnlanning.com/bouncy.jpg

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Exactly what I was thinking!

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

Exactly what I was thinking!

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Yeah I just got done playing some rollercoaster tycoon and I was wondering how I could buy that ride.

Today's the last day to get in on the intro special on those roll bars, and I think I'm going to pass. :( Taking everyone's input into consideration, as well as really looking at where it would sit in my car, I don't see it being enough of a benefit to me to warrant the expense. Especially since I don't need one as I don't race/track. I really appreciate everyone's help steering me in the right direction! :drive:

So... I think I'm going to get the Good-Win brace and call it a day (photo). I'm leaning this direction over the Frenzy mainly because it sits lower and has less visual impact (the Frenzy sits level with the tops of the seatbelt towers). Hopefully that will stiffen up the back a bit. Plus it costs a whole lot less than the roll bar!! ;)

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Originally Posted by Monkey of Death

Today's the last day to get in on the intro special on those roll bars, and I think I'm going to pass. :( Taking everyone's input into consideration, as well as really looking at where it would sit in my car, I don't see it being enough of a benefit to me to warrant the expense. Especially since I don't need one as I don't race/track. I really appreciate everyone's help steering me in the right direction! :drive:

So... I think I'm going to get the Good-Win brace and call it a day (photo). I'm leaning this direction over the Frenzy mainly because it sits lower and has less visual impact (the Frenzy sits level with the tops of the seatbelt towers). Hopefully that will stiffen up the back a bit. Plus it costs a whole lot less than the roll bar!! ;)

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For what it's worth, I think you made the right decision for you. ;)

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Originally Posted by Titus

For what it's worth, I think you made the right decision for you. ;)

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+1!

Have you added back some of the OEM bracing that was removed, that may help also and be team cheap bastard approved! ::Banana::

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Originally Posted by Monkey of Death

Today's the last day to get in on the intro special on those roll bars, and I think I'm going to pass. :( Taking everyone's input into consideration, as well as really looking at where it would sit in my car, I don't see it being enough of a benefit to me to warrant the expense. Especially since I don't need one as I don't race/track. I really appreciate everyone's help steering me in the right direction! :drive:

So... I think I'm going to get the Good-Win brace and call it a day (photo). I'm leaning this direction over the Frenzy mainly because it sits lower and has less visual impact (the Frenzy sits level with the tops of the seatbelt towers). Hopefully that will stiffen up the back a bit. Plus it costs a whole lot less than the roll bar!! ;)

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I've got to say, nothing stiffens up a Miata like a roll bar.
I don't know anything about this "no brainer" bar but with the hard core bar, if you can fit in your car with the top up you'll be lower than the roll bar. the top of my hard core bar touches the underside of the soft top when it's up.

I just don't see that little brace stiffening your chassis anywhere near as well as a roll bar. Still, roll bars do have down sides and I can understand if you don't want to put one on.
In that case you might want to look at (this) as well as the Good-Win brace. I think you can get it from Track Dog as well but I don't see it on the web site.
Just my $.02 worth.

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Originally Posted by Titus

For what it's worth, I think you made the right decision for you. ;)

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Thanks! Most car questions aren't this complicated!! I appreciate everyone's input.

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Have you added back some of the OEM bracing that was removed, that may help also and be team cheap bastard approved! ::Banana::

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I did get all of the OEM bracing replaced, albeit with much grumbling ;) The chassis isn't bad, but every bit of stiffness helps!

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Originally Posted by scmx5driver

I've got to say, nothing stiffens up a Miata like a roll bar.
I don't know anything about this "no brainer" bar but with the hard core bar, if you can fit in your car with the top up you'll be lower than the roll bar. the top of my hard core bar touches the underside of the soft top when it's up.

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I know you can't beat the roll bar for stiffness. You are incorrect, though, when you say, "if you can fit in your car with the top up you'll be lower than the roll bar". Since the top of my head touches the soft top, it means the top of my head is even with the bar. I sat in Tim's car with the M2 sport and was literally using the bar as a headrest. I love the idea, but the reality, and the mechanics, aren't going to work for me (not without a lot more expense in changing seats, anyway). I have a real concern with the head clearance issue since I've been rear-ended about a dozen times over the years. The number of times I've rolled a car has been zero. So while I'd like a roll bar, it has to be safe for me in the ever-present possibility/probability of a rear-ender!

If it works for ya, then go for it...

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Originally Posted by Monkey of Death

Thanks! Most car questions aren't this complicated!! I appreciate everyone's input.



I did get all of the OEM bracing replaced, albeit with much grumbling ;) The chassis isn't bad, but every bit of stiffness helps!



I know you can't beat the roll bar for stiffness. You are incorrect, though, when you say, "if you can fit in your car with the top up you'll be lower than the roll bar". Since the top of my head touches the soft top, it means the top of my head is even with the bar. I sat in Tim's car with the M2 sport and was literally using the bar as a headrest. I love the idea, but the reality, and the mechanics, aren't going to work for me (not without a lot more expense in changing seats, anyway). I have a real concern with the head clearance issue since I've been rear-ended about a dozen times over the years. The number of times I've rolled a car has been zero. So while I'd like a roll bar, it has to be safe for me in the ever-present possibility/probability of a rear-ender!

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lol, I agree. If you can't put the top up without your head touching it, a roll bar would just be something to bang your head on. And if you're tall and get rear-ended your going to bang you head on the roll bar. I know this from experience, thank goodness for SFI padding.