So my oil pump is dying...

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11-13-2006, 10:24 AM
CraiginTX

So my oil pump is dying...

It's taking 5 to 10 seconds or more to get oil pressure on startup, pretty much every time I start the car. While there's no oil pressure, there's horrible clattering from the top end of the motor. So far, nothing that sounds like rod bearings or other bottom end noise. Once pressure comes up, engine is quiet and oil pressure is good (I have a working OPG). Symptoms are as described by several on the :batman: board prior to total oil pump failure.

The engine currently does not burn or leak any oil, seems to make good power, runs smooth, etc. TB and WP were done less than 20k ago. The car is my daily driver, and I'd prefer not to have it disassembled for several weeks trying to solve the problem.

What's a member of TCB to do?

1) Replace the pump and associated seals, and pray that none of the bearings have been toasted yet.

2) Drop in a used engine with similar or lower miles and hope my oil pump is the exception. Also hope the replacement doesn't leak or burn oil, has good compression, etc. Part out or sell current engine to recoup some of the cost.

3) Rebuild an engine (either mine or a used one) top to bottom and be ready for another 150k miles or so.

4) High perf rebuild along the lines of NA 1.8L block, 99-00 NB head and intake manifold. Maybe 01+ pistons for higher compression...

Okay, #4 probably isn't TCB approved, but it's fun to dream right? Anyone else have any bright ideas?

Craig
11-13-2006, 11:48 AM
Darron65

I've had lots of high mileage cars before but never had a pump go bad. Had a clogged pickup once which was confusing: Good pressure until I had a few minutes at high revs then the oil pressure would recover once I dropped back to idle.

I don't understand how the pressure ever comes up at startup. If the pump is loose enough that it doesn't immediately pressurize, what is changing in the next 10 seconds? I'm sure you're not reving it up (I certainly wouldn't if it's making noises).

Maybe the solution is "never turn the engine off". Hope this helps. :D
11-13-2006, 03:42 PM
channelmaniac

If you have good cold engine oil pressure you should be fine to replace the oil pump... but before you do that drop the oil pan and check the pickup assembly...

If the pickup assembly is OK and is not gunked up or blocked then replace the pump.

If you have bad cold oil pressure then you need to check the bearings too. I had that problem on the old engine from the Spec project car. But it wasn't due to oil pressure. It was due to losing coolant and severly overheating the engine. (previous to me buying it)
11-13-2006, 03:51 PM
CraiginTX

Quote:

Originally Posted by channelmaniac

If you have good cold engine oil pressure you should be fine to replace the oil pump... but before you do that drop the oil pan and check the pickup assembly...

If the pickup assembly is OK and is not gunked up or blocked then replace the pump.

If you have bad cold oil pressure then you need to check the bearings too. I had that problem on the old engine from the Spec project car. But it wasn't due to oil pressure. It was due to losing coolant and severly overheating the engine. (previous to me buying it)

Once pressure does come up, it's 60+ psi cold. Warm idle appears to be around 15 psi. Regular driving around 30 or so.

The 0 oil pressure on startup has just started happening lately. I've only owned the car since May, so I don't know much about its past, though the PO was a Miata enthusiast as well.

I will have to drop the pan to get at the pump so I can check and clean the pickup while I'm in there. Should I try to inspect or replace the main bearings as long as it's torn apart - or is that more trouble than it's worth? I'm actually more worried about HLAs and cam bearings, based on the noises it's made.

Craig
11-13-2006, 04:05 PM
Adam Payrot

When was your last oil change, and what brand/weight did you use?
11-13-2006, 04:07 PM
black roadster

Craig,

Did you swap the OPG for a real one? The oem OPG on a 95+ is a dummy gauge. Not nearly as accurate as a real OPG from the 90-94. I wonder what would cause a dummy gauge to act like that because typically they are either on or off from what I understand.

Gary sells a kit to convert your dummy gauge to a real and accurate OPG.
I have my old dummy OPG from my 95 (I swapped out) if you want to see if its a malfunctioning gauge. Sadly I don't have the dummy sender. I must have thrown it away. :(
11-13-2006, 04:14 PM
Titus

Most Miatas make a decent amount of HLA noise. When I first got my car, it made the noise all of the time. I changed the oil, and it went away.... for about 500 miles. I messed around with different oil types and weights and found that a 5w20 synthetic-blend would make it go around 2500-3000 miles free of noise. It was a nice indicator to tell me it was time to change the oil. I now am running 5w20 Mobile 1 full synthetic, and I have never waited long enough between oil changes to see at what mileage the constant HLA noise comes back. I do still get a little HLA noise at startup, but it is usually gone within 2-3 seconds.

With all that said, your reported oil pressures would scare me.
11-13-2006, 04:21 PM
CraiginTX

Bought car in May @ 78,000 miles, occasional clatter for <2 sec which I attributed to HLAs.

Changed oil right before Hallett @ ~81,000 miles. 10W/30 dino, Mazda OEM filter. Clatter became more frequent & longer duration in the weeks since Hallett. As duration became long, I was able to associate 0 oil pressure with clattering noise.

Changed oil ~2 weeks ago @ ~82,200 miles. Sent sample of oil to Blackstone for analysis - still waiting. Filled with 5W/30 dino, Mazda OEM filter. No immediate change in noise or frequency of occurrence.

Over the past couple of weeks, the frequency has increased to pretty much every start when the car has been sitting longer than about 30 minutes, and the duration is up to 10 seconds or more on a cold start.

The car is a '96 but has been retrofitted with a working OPG. I have also verified that while the gauge reads 0, I can't see oil splashing around if I pull the oil filler cap. When the pressure comes up and the clattering stops, you can see oil through the filler and little drops spray out.
11-13-2006, 06:05 PM
channelmaniac

You need to stop driving now it before it gets severely damaged.

I'd have to look at the manual to see if you need to pull the crank to change the oil pump. If you don't then I wouldn't mess with the bearings.

You will need to disconnect the engine and transmission mounts and either drop the subframe to get to it or pull the engine out and do it that way as you do have to drop the oil pan for sure.

At a minimum you will need to replace the oil pan gasket, the oil pump, crank oil seal, and if you haven't done it yet the timing belt/water pump.

RJ
11-13-2006, 07:44 PM
POS Racing

FWIW symptoms sound similar -> http://www.miata.net/garage/tsb/s004_93.html

Have ya sea foamed since ya got it???
11-13-2006, 07:58 PM
CraiginTX

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS Racing

FWIW symptoms sound similar -> http://www.miata.net/garage/tsb/s004_93.html

Have ya sea foamed since ya got it???

It did sound like the TSB symptoms initially. But given NO oil pressure (zip, zero, zilch, nada) along with hideous clattering sounds like oil pump, not HLAs. It's to the point now where the car is parked pending oil pump replacement.

I suppose I could give the SeaFoam a shot - but it would mean starting the car at least twice more to do the cleaning...
11-13-2006, 08:31 PM
Sharpie

Isn't this the car from Austin? Call John Long or Dan Pedroza and ask them what their initial analysis was.
11-14-2006, 10:08 AM
CraiginTX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpie

Isn't this the car from Austin? Call John Long or Dan Pedroza and ask them what their initial analysis was.

I did, and John is also of the opinion that an oil pump is in order. Before the PO sold it, John thought that *might* be the case. Given the symptoms I'm now experiencing, he feels more certain....
11-14-2006, 10:19 AM
black roadster

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraiginTX

I did, and John is also of the opinion that an oil pump is in order. Before the PO sold it, John thought that *might* be the case. Given the symptoms I'm now experiencing, he feels more certain....

That sucks! ::Censor::
11-14-2006, 01:55 PM
channelmaniac

Time for a Tech day!

I can bring over an engine stand and hoist in the back of my truck.

RJ
11-14-2006, 07:22 PM
Sharpie

John is guy you can trust 100%. I hoped he was wrong when you bought the car, but it's served you well and that's the cool thing about miatas, you can fix them and drive the piss out of the in mean time. Call Stevan at miata solutions if you decide not to do the work yourself.
11-15-2006, 09:19 AM
CraiginTX

Quote:

Originally Posted by channelmaniac

Time for a Tech day!

I can bring over an engine stand and hoist in the back of my truck.

RJ

So I ordered the oil pump and associated seals, etc. from Tommy at Finishline today. May not arrive by the weekend, but I figure it'll take me that long just to get the thing torn down anyway.

Tech day would be grand, if anyone is interested - I'll be in the garage on Saturday. I'm in Richardson, near George Bush/75. PM me for details.

And RJ, I'd love to take you up on the offer of the hoist & stand, if it's still available.

Craig
11-15-2006, 09:41 AM
MadMerv

You don't need to pull the engine or drop the subframe. My original SM was a 96, and after a dropped valve and complete rebuild, it ran fine for couple of days, then....no oil pressure when we started it up to go to the grid for a race. I had a pretty good idea that the return spring in the oil pump was stuck, so we disconnected the motor mounts, raised the engine as high as it would go, dropped the pan, pulled the pump, and found a sliver of metal had indeed wedged itself in the pressure relief cylinder. It had scoured it slightly, so I carefully honed out the scratches, put it back together, and had oil pressure in two hours!

Bottom line. it's not a difficult job, you don't need to drop the crank, or any of that hard stuff. We did it in the grassy paddock area at the Abiliene airport. Never had a problem with it again. I did learn a good lesson on making sure all the oil galleys are free of foreign materials, and keeping my work area EXTRA clean on re-assembly. Sometimes the tinyest sliver can get ya!
11-15-2006, 10:48 AM
CraiginTX

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMerv

...so we disconnected the motor mounts, raised the engine as high as it would go...

Using a hoist? Floor jack? Really strong arms? ;)

Sounds easy enough, I guess - just want to make sure I'm not missing some really important detail.

Thanks
11-15-2006, 10:53 AM
channelmaniac

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraiginTX

So I ordered the oil pump and associated seals, etc. from Tommy at Finishline today. May not arrive by the weekend, but I figure it'll take me that long just to get the thing torn down anyway.

Tech day would be grand, if anyone is interested - I'll be in the garage on Saturday. I'm in Richardson, near George Bush/75. PM me for details.

And RJ, I'd love to take you up on the offer of the hoist & stand, if it's still available.

Craig

This Saturday is bad for me to help wrench, but I can bring by the hoist & stand. I've already promised HudsonHawk to return the wrenching favor on the Spec project engine/trans swap to help him with a timing belt/water pump job.

Unless you & he are up for doing that at your place as well. ;)

RJ
11-15-2006, 11:39 AM
MadMerv

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraiginTX

Using a hoist? Floor jack? Really strong arms? ;)

Sounds easy enough, I guess - just want to make sure I'm not missing some really important detail.

Thanks

Floor jack on the harmonic balancer
11-15-2006, 11:53 AM
channelmaniac

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMerv

Floor jack on the harmonic balancer

Ah, yes... but... I believe all that has to come off to get the oil pump.
11-15-2006, 01:02 PM
MadMerv

Oops! You are right, RJ. It's been awhile. My guess, after six years, is that I jacked it up to remove the oil pan, then lowered it back on to the mounts to remove the pump. BTW, you cannot get the pan off in this process without removing the oil pickup, once the oil pan bolts are loose. I don't think I had to do anything with the windage tray. I do remember it was difficult to get the bolts started for the oil pickup on re-assembly, as there is not a lot of room to see. If my feeble mind remembers anything else, I will chime in......................... Thanks for keeping me honest ;)
11-17-2006, 02:15 PM
CraiginTX

So disassembly starts tonight or tomorrow. Gonna try the MadMerv Method. Unfortunately my parts order is a few days away so there's no hope of finishing this weekend.

RJ, hopefully I won't need the hoist or stand. If I decide to give up and pull the motor, I'll give you a shout. Thanks again for the offer.

And thanks to everyone else for the advice and suggestions.
11-17-2006, 02:30 PM
channelmaniac

Hey,

HudsonHawk is calling in sick so I'm available tomorrow (after a quick jaunt down to the 3rd Saturday sale) if you need any help.

RJ