More of my car saga

Those of you at Hooters last night know the story, but I'll put it out there for the rest of you guys...


Yesterday I took my car in to the dealership to get the comp. wash and have them check out the tranny (I have documented grinding, just trying to add to it until they decide to fix it). Of course, they didn't find anything when the tech drove it, so they brought it in the shop to check the fluid for metal shavings.

For whatever reason, they also hooked the computer up to see if they could pull any codes. They found one alright, a pretty ::Censor:: big one: over-rev on 06-12-06 at 3:1x.

Now, I point you here and then here.

That's June 1st for my wreck, and June 28th when the car was returned to me. The dealer's body shop had the car, and over-revved the car while it was there.

As if the over-rev is bad enough, the entire engine/drive-train warranty is now voided with that over-rev code in the ECU. The RSX permanently burns that code into a special sector of memory where it can't be erased. I have no idea if the body shop tried to erase it (the CEL most likely came on w/ an over-rev), but now it's a little more clear as to why my radio was reset when I got the car back.

I've got to see how my options play out with this, but the body shop is ::BaHump::

One Over-rev voids the warranty!?!? ::Shocked:

Lay into 'em and don't let 'em off the hook!

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

One Over-rev voids the warranty!?!? ::Shocked:

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That's worse than a Mitsu! :(

Fuel cut is at 8300ish, the engine can safely go to 8600 (the ECU replacements put the fuel cut there)... Anything over ~9300 pretty much guarantees your valves to contact the pistons, unless you are very lucky. Not very many people get to drive their RSX's after an over-rev.

Maybe a silly question, but at what point does the ECU record the over rev? Is it higher than the fuel cutoff? I mean, hitting the rev limiter once and your warranty is screwed seems a bit off to me...

Moved over to OTM Tech & Chat...

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Originally Posted by Dave04

Maybe a silly question, but at what point does the ECU record the over rev? Is it higher than the fuel cutoff? I mean, hitting the rev limiter once and your warranty is screwed seems a bit off to me...

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It records anything over the fuel cut.

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

Moved over to OTM Tech & Chat...

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??? It's more visible in Bull and I'd like any opinions on what actions I should take...

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

??? It's more visible in Bull and I'd like any opinions on what actions I should take...

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Perhaps... but it's about your OTM.

Tell ya what, for you, I'll move it back.

So what has the dealer said so far, they going to fix it or buy it???

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

Perhaps... but it's about your OTM.

Tell ya what, for you, I'll move it back.

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:clap: The check's in the mail ;)

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

So what has the dealer said so far, they going to fix it or buy it???

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Waiting for them to call me. I haven't been able to get my service adviser on the phone today. At least they gave me a TSX to drive around in while things get sorted out.

Sounds like someone in the shop will be losing their gig...

Two things:

First, it's pretty typical to disco the battery during any major repair work. I'd be a little more suspect if I got my car back from the body shop and my radio presets still worked.

Second, would you mind publishing the repair shop's name? I'd prefer to avoid taking my car to anywhere that encourages that kind of abuse.

Regarding the ECU record - I'd ask the dealership for a printout of the ECU code, and a statment in writing to the effect that this code causes your warranty to be voided. Then I'd call up the owner/general manager of whatever body shop you used, and schedule an opportunity to come in and sit down with him to discuss this. Decide what you think is fair compensation for this, and then stick to your guns - if the ECU does indeed record a time/date stamp of the overrev and you've got documentation to prove that the car was in the body shop's posession during this time, I'd suggest that you've got a pretty solid case against them.

While you have every right to be angry, don't look at this as an opportunity to profit from the body shop's abuse. In other words, don't expect them to buy you a new car, 'cause it won't happen. I'd get the dealership to give me a worst-case estimate on R & R for the valve damage associated with an overrev, and then go in asking for 80-100% of this figure.

If they balk, sue 'em. Small claims court limit in Tarrant County is $5k.

Is this code deal going to stay with this car as part of it's "Permanent Record"???

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

As if the over-rev is bad enough, the entire engine/drive-train warranty is now voided with that over-rev code in the ECU. The RSX permanently burns that code into a special sector of memory where it can't be erased. I have no idea if the body shop tried to erase it (the CEL most likely came on w/ an over-rev), but now it's a little more clear as to why my radio was reset when I got the car back.

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So no more warranty on the car.....

Iain, it was the dealerships bodyshop. ::Rant::

Yes, I have the print-out, I asked for a copy as soon as he showed me the original. I also have dated pictures, the paperwork from the body shop, and also the statement for the rental car that State Farm paid for me to use while my car was in the shop (I had to turn it in the day that I picked up my car).

The other problem I have with an engine replacement is that it is most likely going to be put in as "good will". Once you have a good will done at Acura, they pretty much look down at you. A lot of the members of CRSX have had legit warranty claims, only to have the dealership write it off as good will and tell them they are SOL next time.

That code will never be cleared out of the original ECU. I could replace the ECU, but otherwise, that code is going to be in the ECU forever.


Oh and it was the North Arlington Vandergriff Collision Center. The service director told me that the South Arlington shop is the one I should have gone to.

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Is this code deal going to stay with this car as part of it's "Permanent Record"???

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It is now on record with Acura as well, since they pulled the code, they entered it into the vehicle history...

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So no more warranty on the car.....

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Exactly... It's a snowball effect too, even though the engine was over-revved, that caused the transmission internals to spin faster, etc etc. At least that's how they tend to justify it.

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

Oh and it was the North Arlington Vandergriff Collision Center. The service director told me that the South Arlington shop is the one I should have gone to.

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Oh well fine ::Rant:: time to mention that little tidbit!

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Oh well fine ::Rant:: time to mention that little tidbit!

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No ::Rant:: kidding....

I forgot to add in about the good will... my thinking on them doing a good will replacement would be that they could still call it warranty work and get out of actually having to pay for the motor (Acura would pick up the tab). I'd rather Vandergriff pay for a motor and put it in, and cover it under the same 100k warranty I had before, and NOT deal with the hassles that come from having a good will repair.

If the engine does get replaced, I will also request that the old one remain in my possession...

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

The other problem I have with an engine replacement is that it is most likely going to be put in as "good will". Once you have a good will done at Acura, they pretty much look down at you. A lot of the members of CRSX have had legit warranty claims, only to have the dealership write it off as good will and tell them they are SOL next time.

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As long as you have everything documented, it sounds like they'll be SOL. Every scrap of paper you get during this process should go in a big, fat folder so that you could easily whip it out during any future issues.

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

If the engine does get replaced, I will also request that the old one remain in my possession...

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Doubtful...

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Originally Posted by Treibenschnell

Doubtful...

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You never know... one of the good will examples I could use... a guy's engine blew with 350 miles on it, he came home with the old block while they dropped in a new one for him.

FWIW, the price of a K20 puts it over the small claims court limit....

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10002-PRB-A04 ACURA RSX CYLINDER BLOCK ASSY. 3211.46
10003-PRB-A08 ACURA RSX CYLINDER HEAD ASSY. 3384.20

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Those are list prices, there's a few dealerships online that sell them for ~600 less, each.

Some other things that I haven't mentioned about the body shop...

-Sunday, we noticed that the "repaired" wheel is still bent/hobbles while putting new tires on

-I asked them to fix some of the fitment issues as things weren't straight, they never adjusted it properly and I still have a bad gap in the door

-Both the front and rear bumpers were installed wrong; the rear rubs at the corners and the paint has come off, and the front has a couple of bad gaps

My bad - I didn't realize this was the dealership bodyshop we were talking about.

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

I forgot to add in about the good will... my thinking on them doing a good will replacement would be that they could still call it warranty work and get out of actually having to pay for the motor (Acura would pick up the tab). I'd rather Vandergriff pay for a motor and put it in, and cover it under the same 100k warranty I had before, and NOT deal with the hassles that come from having a good will repair.

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Personally, if the dealership fixed the car (Vandergriff North or Vandergriff South, who the ::Censor:: cares?) and caused the overrev, I'd expect them to do what it takes for me to retain the warranty coverage I'd purchased with the vehicle. If that means they have to replace the engine, so be it. If there is a factory procedure for erasing that code (this is likely, but it's probably the Regional Acura rep that has the ability to do this instead of the dealership), then I'd want the code removed and my warranty reinstated. I'd also want this little incident noted on the car's "permanent file" so that it can be referred to in the future at any Acura dealership.

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

If the engine does get replaced, I will also request that the old one remain in my possession...

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No offense, but that smacks of profiteering. Chances are you aren't going to get that old motor back (assuming you get a replacement to begin with), and asking for it is an unreasonable expectation. If you approach the dealership with unreasonable expectations, they're going to assume that you'll be a problem customer, and they're a lot less likely to work with you.

You have a reasonable right to expect them to return the car - and the warranty - to the condition it would have been in had this incident never occurred. What that means to me is that you have a reasonable right to expect the code to be cleared and the warranty to be reinstated. You have a reasonable right to expect the engine to be repaired/replaced if it is exhibiting any signs of damage from an overrev. That's easy enough to determine from a compression test, and it doesn't sound like you've currently got said problem.

TO expect that you'll get a replacement car or a replacement engine if the only current sign of damage is a stored ECU code is unreasonable. To expect further that you'll get the old engine in case of an engine replacement - under warranty - is greedy. Just imho.

I understand you're upset about this - rightfully so - but in the end I think you'll find resolving the situation to be a lot less unpleasant if you approach it as "how can we make this right?", instead of "what all can I get out of this?"

I said that to mean...not that I would demand it, but it would be something I would ask for casually. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask nicely... I've been fairly reasonable through this so far and I know that going crazy isn't going to get me anywhere, but I've given them a lot of credit where I shouldn't have as well.

I'm confused I thought the transmission had the issue not the motor?? You can over-rev a motor without screwing it up.

I brought it in to get the transmission checked out, and they drove it and couldn't replicate it. So they brought it into the shop to check the fluid for metal shavings, and somebody back there decided to hook the code reader up and see if any codes had been stored.

The issue here is that the K20 is very sensitive to over-revs, most people that have over-revved theirs have had to buy a new engine. Mine *seems* to be ok, but I am going to do a compression test and I really need to get a leak-down done on it too. The ECU is another problem, that over-rev will stay in the computer forever, unless I over-rev it again. That area of its memory is non-erasable and strictly used to store over-rev codes.

There's also the fact that the body shop did this to my car while it was not drivable. So did they drive it on the screwed up rear suspension, or did they put it on a lift to see how fast they could get it up to, and then put it in the wrong gear? Or ????

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

I'm confused I thought the transmission had the issue not the motor?? You can over-rev a motor without screwing it up.

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The over-rev voids the warranty on the whole drivetrain, so I suspect they won't fix the transmission until the over-rev situation is cleared up.

In addition, it seems to be Honda's belief that one over-rev can have lasting effects that may not show up for a while (if this wasn't the case, they wouldn't void the warranty even if it seems to be running fine after an over-rev). It seems to me that if Honda feels it necessary to void the warranty on the entire drivetrain, that the entire drivetrain should be replaced to remove the possibility of future related problems in all of the parts that they feel could be effected by the over-rev.

Echo.......... Echo.......... Echo..........

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Originally Posted by POS Racing

Echo.......... Echo.......... Echo..........

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Damn these thin forum walls... you can here everything here! :D

I'm going to the body shop tomorrow with all the info that I have, can't wait to see the look on their faces... or better yet, I'm expecting complete denial :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Titus

The over-rev voids the warranty on the whole drivetrain, so I suspect they won't fix the transmission until the over-rev situation is cleared up.

In addition, it seems to be Honda's belief that one over-rev can have lasting effects that may not show up for a while (if this wasn't the case, they wouldn't void the warranty even if it seems to be running fine after an over-rev). It seems to me that if Honda feels it necessary to void the warranty on the entire drivetrain, that the entire drivetrain should be replaced to remove the possibility of future related problems in all of the parts that they feel could be effected by the over-rev.

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Hey titus, typically if an overrev does any damage, it will cause a sudden and catastrophic engine failure. You'll drop a valve or spin a bearing and the motor will suddenly start making nasty, expensive noises. If an engine doesn't exhibit these signs, a leakdown test will tell you if you've done any damage to the valvetrain. If you haven't, then chances are you've done no long term damage to the engine.

Why would Honda void the warranty for an overrev? Because they can. It's a pretty clear cut case of operating the engine outside its design envelope. It's also typically indicative of abuse. Even if the owner wasn't the one doing the abusing at this point.

Adam, concerning the ECM code - I seriously doubt that code can't be cleared by anyone, although your local dealer might not be able to do so. Let me give you a little analogy from my world (large mining equipment) - we buy engines from Caterpillar and Cummins. We can alter certain ECM parameters in house, but we can't clear fault codes (we can access them). Our local Cummins applications engineer, who is employed by the distributor Cummins Southern Plains (who has a similar relationship to the factory as an auto dealer) has tools that can access and modify a lot more EC parameters and clear certain codes, but they can't do everything. Cummins factory service engineers, like the ones I worked with last month in Wyoming, can access everything in the EC code, and can clear any and all history... even though neither we nor our Cummins distributor can.

I'd guess Honda is the same way. Having an EC that cannot be cleared by any means makes no sense, since ECs are only as infallible as the signals they receive, and those sensors can sometimes fail or send erroneous readings. Honda's engineers recognize that, and I'd be willing to bet that code can be cleared, although your local dealer might have to get someone from Honda NA (like the Regional rep) involved to do so.

For those of you that don't read the s2ki forums... The preferred method for setting the over-rev code in your Honda ECU involves an extra large Taco Bell cup...

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Originally Posted by tailchaser

For those of you that don't read the s2ki forums... The preferred method for setting the over-rev code in your Honda ECU involves an extra large Taco Bell cup...

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:clap: If you kids would like to read up on the dangers of S2000's and Taco Bell™ cups... LINK HERE

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Originally Posted by Dave04

:clap: If you kids would like to read up on the dangers of S2000's and Taco Bell™ cups... LINK HERE

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That guy lived about 2 minutes away from me when I was staying in Las Colinas. He had his RSX stolen last summer, and I was always worried that the same could happen to me. Apparently, somebody had a flat-bed and went hunting for parts. This was in a pretty nice Valley Ranch apartment... Seems his bad luck is still going.

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Originally Posted by Adam Payrot

Seems his bad luck is still going.

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I don't think him blowing the motor in his S2000 had anything to do with luck... that was complete stupidity on his part....

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Originally Posted by RSXelrate

I was racing a 350z today that followed me and was dying for a race.

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