Who Killed the Electric Car?

Anyone seen this documentary. While I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theorists, I would be curious to see an unbiased scientific opinion of electric cars. Based on what I heard, if true, I would consider owning one or even a plugin hybrid.

If I had the money or if demand increased to the point of making this comparably priced to gasoline cars I would own this.

Based on these specs, an electric car is something most people could live with as a comuter car. Granted it isn't a family hauler but all us Miata owners know a two seat roadster can be quite practical. Give me a Tesla and a plugin hybrid Minivan and I'd have everything I need. ::Banana::

The big thing for me is getting this country off the oil nipple of the Middle East. I'd drive electric even if it meant making some sacrifices.

I know some of you have some arguments so let's hear them. I also added a poll to see where everyone stands on this issue.

Ya tryin' to make up for that ::turd:: from yesterday with this one? ;)

Interesting topic. Unless you're on a wind power plan (like us), you're trading one form of carbon emissions (tailpipe) for a different one (power plant) by moving to an electric car. That doesn't invalidate the concept, though. If we had more clean power (wind, nuclear, etc) then we could hypothetically see dramatic emissions reductions with electric cars.

IMHO, mass-market pure electrics are still some ways off. The old internal combustion engine can be made a helluva lot more efficient than it is today. I would rather focus on that endeavor than dump a lot of money into electric cars.

S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by black roadster

Based on these specs, an electric car is something most people could live with as a commuter car. Granted it isn't a family hauler but all us Miata owners know a two seat roadster can be quite practical. Give me a Tesla and a plugging hybrid Minivan and I'd have everything I need. ::Banana::

---

Ya bother to check the price on the Tesla it's a few ::2Cents:: more than a Miata.

IIRC the price is just short of $100,000.00. I don't think many of you could live with the car payment. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Ya bother to check the price on the Tesla it's a few ::2Cents:: more than a Miata.

IIRC the price is just short of $100,000.00. I don't think many of you could live with the car payment. ;)

---

Hey Sparky, read my whole post. I said if I had the money or if demand increased to the point of making this comparably priced to gasoline cars I would own this. ;)

I was basing the Miata comparison only as living with a roadster as a daily driver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by black roadster

Hey Sparky, read my whole post. I said if I had the money or if demand increased to the point of making this comparably priced to gasoline cars I would own this. ;)

---

But you didn't share the $100,000 part with the rest of the class, which is a valuable bit of information to study when your talking about lets all be more like Al Gore.

Current the demand isn't available so the best somewhat feasible alternative would be more in line with something from the Toyota Hybrid collection. And the long term ownership cost and environment impact have not been fully assessed.

And on the subject of environment impact; what do you think happens to the battery in your Tesla when it ::turd:: the bed?? Does the battery fairy come and pick it up and take it to a battery land?? ::Angel::

And as S mentioned where does the power come from to power your $100,000 car?? More than likely a coal burning power facility here in North Texas, and as you know coal is the #1 clean burning fuel Evar!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by srivendel

Interesting topic. Unless you're on a wind power plan (like us), you're trading one form of carbon emissions (tailpipe) for a different one (power plant) by moving to an electric car. That doesn't invalidate the concept, though. If we had more clean power (wind, nuclear, etc) then we could hypothetically see dramatic emissions reductions with electric cars.

S.

---

Tesla and the tree huggers have an argument for that.

Quote:

---

Don't electric vehicles actually just move pollution to another location? And therefore don't EVs still use oil?

No. Electric power generation in the USA does not use oil. Coal, hydro, nuclear, solar, and natural gas are typical sources for generating electricity. Power generation plants, even coal burning ones, are inherently more efficient and less polluting than vehicles due to economies of scale and the ability to more efficiently remove pollutants from a smaller number of much larger fixed locations.
Also, an electric car is far more efficient than a gasoline car, so the amount of pollution generated by producing the electricity to drive an EV a given distance is much less than the pollution from the gasoline to drive an internal combustion car the same distance.

---

Also,

Quote:

---

Can the Tesla Roadster use Solar Power?

Yes. The Tesla Motors Solar Option provides solar power energy for your Tesla Roadster. We can arrange installation of solar panels for your home through one of our installation partners or you can purchase our Solar Option.

---

Free, renewable power for your car. How cool is that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by srivendel

IMHO, mass-market pure electrics are still some ways off. The old internal combustion engine can be made a helluva lot more efficient than it is today. I would rather focus on that endeavor than dump a lot of money into electric cars.

---

I agree. Unless the Federal government and car makers get involved, I'd guess pure electrics will only be an option for rich greenies and Hollyweird stars.

However, I feel a zero emmisions vehicle with no use of oil is far better than any ICE motor can achieve. Also, going electric removes most maintinance requirements as you don't need to change oil, filters, emmisions equipment, etc. Brake pad life is also increased due to regeneative braking systems. Alignments and tires would be the only frequent maintinace needed. ::Banana::

I doubt we'll see it though because the oil lobbyists and car and parts manufacturers would be out of business before long. ::Rant::

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by black roadster

Free, renewable power for your car. How cool is that?

---

The solar panels aren't cheap. My dad got panels for his home and they cost about $35K. The good thing is the state is paying for half of that and the electric company is paying him for any electricity he doesn't use. He basically gets free electric and gas, and will make his $17K back in about 5-7 yrs. depending on the weather.

What they ought to start working on is Mr. Fusion.
http://home.att.net/~charlesmurphy10/mrfusion.gif

Cuz we all know that humans make trash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

The solar panels aren't cheap. My dad got panels for his home and they cost about $35K. The good thing is the state is paying for half of that and the electric company is paying him for any electricity he doesn't use. He basically gets free electric and gas, and will make his $17K back in about 5-7 yrs. depending on the weather.

---

Stop it! We are all to agree with BR! ::Banana::

Great point BTW!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

But you didn't share the $100,000 part with the rest of the class, which is a valuable bit of information to study when your talking about lets all be more like Al Gore.

---

No argument that a Tesla is not a practical option for most people currently. It would need to be around $30k to be even considered by most middle to upper middle class folks. At $30k it would still be to rich for my blood. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Current the demand isn't available so the best somewhat feasible alternative would be more in line with something from the Toyota Hybrid collection. And the long term ownership cost and environment impact have not been fully assessed.

---

I agree. Many see hybrids as a stepping stone to EV acceptance. I still think Toyota, etc should offer Plugin Hybrids but they're losing money on them as is. If demand increases, we may see this as an option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

And on the subject of environment impact; what do you think happens to the battery in your Tesla when it ::turd:: the bed?? Does the battery fairy come and pick it up and take it to a battery land?? ::Angel::

---

Per Tesla,

Quote:

---

How long do the batteries last?

Li-Ion batteries are good for 500 complete charge/discharge cycles. One cycle consists of discharging the pack from 100% state of charge (SOC) to 0% SOC. Realistically, drivers will not completely discharge their pack. More likely, drivers will drive the car for 50 or 100 miles then plug it back in to charge it up to 100% SOC. Driving only 50 miles is only a partial discharge, roughly using 20% of the charge. If a driver continues to drive 50 miles every day and recharges every night, then after 5 days they would complete the equivalent of one charge/discharge cycle.
In estimating the life of our batteries, you can multiply the number of cycles by the range. Thus, 500 cycles times 250 miles/charge works out to 125,000 miles, but our estimate is a more conservative 100,000 miles. However the cycle life of 500 cycles is based upon performance that is more challenging to the battery cells than our application. We believe that our pampered batteries will achieve more cycles due to temperature control of the batteries and minimizing the maximum charge voltage.

---

Regarding the old batteries,

Quote:

---

What happens when my car battery reaches the end of its life?

Tesla Motors car batteries are both recyclable and replaceable. We care about the environment and know you do, too. We are working to have our car batteries safely recycled, and have even built the cost of recycling into the purchase price of the car. Simply visit a Tesla Motors Customer Care Center to recycle your old battery, and purchase and install a new one on the same day.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

And as S mentioned where does the power come from to power your $100,000 car?? More than likely a coal burning power facility here in North Texas, and as you know coal is the #1 clean burning fuel Evar!

---

Responded in previous post.

I'm not Al Gore Jr. but I do think that the EV folks seem to have some valid answers to most of the arguments. That's why I'd like to hear some unbiased scientific opinion to see if their arguments hold up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

The solar panels aren't cheap. My dad got panels for his home and they cost about $35K. The good thing is the state is paying for half of that and the electric company is paying him for any electricity he doesn't use. He basically gets free electric and gas, and will make his $17K back in about 5-7 yrs. depending on the weather.

---

You're right. New technology is never inexpensive. However, it shows what is possible. Think of the first cellular phones. Unreliable, heavy, expensive, and only a few people had them. Now, they are reliable, almost too small, often free with a contract and how many folks do you know over the age of 18 who don't have one?

Hey BR, Ya think the Tesla stuff may be putting a positive spin on all the possible negatives because they are trying to sell electric cars???

Oh and vehicles like the Tesla are few and far between.
Look at it this way, how many people that drive huge pickups, to get nothing more than groceries or pick up their kid, would give up their tanks for a "tiny" 2 seater? I don't see too many soccer moms jumping on that band wagon.

I'm not arguing, I just want you too make sure you're looking at the whole picture.

Oh and seeing that the electric car was possible in the 1890's, isn't it about time they made it a viable reality for less than $100K? Humanity has had the EV idea for about 115 yrs and it's only gotten this far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Stop it! We are all to agree with BR! ::Banana::

Great point BTW!

---

:clap: The arguments for EVs seem compelling don't they? I feel the biggest hurdle is the big oil companies and Federal government and public education and acceptance. The technology is there and if adopted en masse, the costs will go down exponentially.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by POS Racing

Hey BR, Ya think the Tesla stuff may be putting a positive spin on all the possible negatives because they are trying to sell electric cars???

---

Yeah. I got that. That's why I'd like to see unbiased scientific facts on the info. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by black roadster

Yeah. I got that. That's why I'd like to see unbiased scientific facts on the info. ;)

---

Here is a classic example from the past!
http://solo23.abac.com/mepez/auction/octad0041.JPG
or watch this movie!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

Oh and vehicles like the Tesla are few and far between.
Look at it this way, how many people that drive huge pickups, to get nothing more than groceries or pick up their kid, would give up their tanks for a "tiny" 2 seater? I don't see too many soccer moms jumping on that band wagon.

I'm not arguing, I just want you too make sure you're looking at the whole picture.

---

Yep. Public acceptance is a BIG hurdle. However adoption of new technology is possible. How many folks in the 90s were saying, "Ugh! I'll never own a cell phone." I knew a few. Don't see to many folks except the Amish without a celly these days.

If people in this country get tired of dealing with the ::turd:: heads in the middle east and making them even more rich then we might see some changes of opinion.

And what about all the ::turd:: heads here? (I mean in the US not on this board)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

And what about all the ::turd:: heads here? (I mean in the US not on this board)

---

You mean like these selfish pricks? Maybe we can send them to the middle east to fight the corruption over there for their oil. ::Clown::

Hummers should be given not driven. ::Clown::




J/K I don't know what kind of POS I would have driven if I didn't have my HMMVEE when I was in the Army.

I have driven 2 different electric vehicles when I was in California and they were wonderful. I think everyone in coastal California should own one today. I don't think it is appropriate just yet in most of the rest of the country. The reasons? Power plant types and weather.

There are no coal burning power plants in California. AFAIK, a little over half of the energy comes from Natural gas, and the rest comes from Nuclear, Hydro, wind, and solar plants. The pollution per KWH is much lower than found in other states where much of the power comes form coal. The lower pollution per KWH means that each EV is making a much bigger effect on reducing pollution.

As for weather, coastal California (where most EV development and support exists) has a very mild climate. There is much smaller need for A/C and Heat then a place like Texas. When those batteries have to heat or cool the passengers as well, the range and efficiency goes down much quicker than that of an ICE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Titus

I have driven 2 different electric vehicles when I was in California and they were wonderful. I think everyone in coastal California should own one today. I don't think it is appropriate just yet in most of the rest of the country. The reasons? Power plant types and weather.

There are no coal burning power plants in California. AFAIK, a little over half of the energy comes from Natural gas, and the rest comes from Nuclear, Hydro, wind, and solar plants. The pollution per KWH is much lower than found in other states where much of the power comes form coal. The lower pollution per KWH means that each EV is making a much bigger effect on reducing pollution.

As for weather, coastal California (where most EV development and support exists) has a very mild climate. There is much smaller need for A/C and Heat then a place like Texas. When those batteries have to heat or cool the passengers as well, the range and efficiency goes down much quicker than that of an ICE.

---

Very valid comments Titus. I'm impressed! :clap: The EV is not an overnight solution. I do think it could be a solution for many Americans across the country though. Battery technology is in it's infantcy. As the technology improves the capabilities of EVs will too.

We need to make drastic changes towards renewable energy sources as California has. California made the tough decisions to get where they are today but there is still lots to do. Oil and Coal are yesterdays power sources. Texas would do well with solar and wind energy as we have plenty of sunny and windy days and the land to install it on.

If I had the $$$ I would use both technologies to power my home.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

Hummers should be given not driven. ::Clown::

---

I almost bought a Hummer...decided to get a "I Need Attention" tattoo on my forehead instead.

I had a Hybrid. Don't want to buy another Honda because of it. The fuel economy was great, but I think that we could do a lot better with a diesel engine. From what I heard on Honda civic Hybrid forums, the engine got the same amount of fuel economy with the hybrid system failure as with the hybrid system in tact.

I would rather see a flash steam engine make it to market. My great Uncle supposedly worked as an engineer for one of the oil companies in the late 40's and early 50's. He told tales of a man that was driving around in a flash steam engine car that used water and a generator to run. The water was sprayed into a 8 cylinder engine that had been converted from an internal combustion engine. There where screens in each of the cylinders to heat the mist into steam. The electric screen grid caused the mist to instantly be transformed into steam. The story goes that the guy had been driving this car around for a couple of months when the oil company bought him out for 2 million dollars. Urban legend I guess... or is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sammm

I almost bought a Hummer...decided to get a "I Need Attention" tattoo on my forehead instead.

---

Nice :clap:

The Tesla car is the only thing I've ever read about that is actually practical as an all electric car. As for the hybrid cars, I would love to have a the Highlander hybrid for a daily commuter so I could have the utility to actually fit my hockey gear, etc and not have the poor fuel economy of regular SUV's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by black roadster

Free, renewable power for your car. How cool is that?

---

That'll go over great in a city like Seattle...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

And what about all the ::turd:: heads here?

---

Hey!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

Hummers should be given not driven.

---

Agreed!

I my defense please note the second part of that post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

And what about all the ::turd:: heads here? (I mean in the US not on this board)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

I my defense please note the second part of that post.

---

I know. I chose to quote you out of context. Modern media, you know. :D

It's cool man. I figured you were ::Clown::ing around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

I figured you were a ::Clown::.

---

Hey!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexus Flux

It's cool man. I figured you were a ::Bum:: ::Clown::

---

:clap:

Bottom line:

NOTHING IS FREE

Most of the technologies listed above are in their infancy, potentially very dangerous, and/or expensive.
Even horses have emissions and need maintenance.













Oh, wait . . . BR dragged us all into another one of his time machines :D but at least this one got many to think for a nanosecond :clap:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by black roadster

Tesla and the tree huggers have an argument for that.

Quote:

---

Don't electric vehicles actually just move pollution to another location? And therefore don't EVs still use oil?

No. Electric power generation in the USA does not use oil. Coal, hydro, nuclear, solar, and natural gas are typical sources for generating electricity. Power generation plants, even coal burning ones, are inherently more efficient and less polluting than vehicles due to economies of scale and the ability to more efficiently remove pollutants from a smaller number of much larger fixed locations.
Also, an electric car is far more efficient than a gasoline car, so the amount of pollution generated by producing the electricity to drive an EV a given distance is much less than the pollution from the gasoline to drive an internal combustion car the same distance.

---

---

Heh. That's kinda funny. I can guarantee you that there isn't a coal-fired power plant on this planet that has emissions on par with an LEV automobile. Ironically, catalyst technology has reached such a level that what comes out of the tailpipe of an ULEV or SULEV automobile in most major metroplitan areas of this country is actually cleaner than what went in! Cars are not the problem - even with the huge and increasing number of automobiles we have on this planet, they contribute only a minute fraction of total airborne pollutants - a number that is dwarfed by the emissions from heavy industry and power generation facilities.

Secondly, economies of scale have nothing to do with pollution levels - this statement is akin to saying "We lose money on every unit we sell, but we make up for it on volume". :roll:

Lastly, a large portion of the pollution in coal's lifecycle comes from the mining process - a process that creates inherently more air pollution than oil or natural gas extraction. When you look at pollution lifecycles, you not only have to account for the consumption part of the lifecycle (whether that be in an internal combustion engine or a power plant), but the extraction process as well.

BTW titus - California may not have any coal-fired pwoer plants on its own soil... but the sad fact is that California is not energy self-sufficient. According to the Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Technology, California actually imports 21% of its electricity from coal-fired plants in other states.

I guess if it isn't technically in your state you don't have to count it, right? :roll:

Battery powered cars are not the answer. Personally, I'd be more inclined to invest my infrastructure dollars in a hydrogen powered fuel cell economy, but that's just me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by altiain

Heh. That's kinda funny. I can guarantee you that there isn't a coal-fired power plant on this planet that has emissions on par with an LEV automobile. Ironically, catalyst technology has reached such a level that what comes out of the tailpipe of an ULEV or SULEV automobile in most major metroplitan areas of this country is actually cleaner than what went in! Cars are not the problem - even with the huge and increasing number of automobiles we have on this planet, they contribute only a minute fraction of total airborne pollutants - a number that is dwarfed by the emissions from heavy industry and power generation facilities.

Secondly, economies of scale have nothing to do with pollution levels - this statement is akin to saying "We lose money on every unit we sell, but we make up for it on volume". :roll:

Lastly, a large portion of the pollution in coal's lifecycle comes from the mining process - a process that creates inherently more air pollution than oil or natural gas extraction. When you look at pollution lifecycles, you not only have to account for the consumption part of the lifecycle (whether that be in an internal combustion engine or a power plant), but the extraction process as well.

BTW titus - California may not have any coal-fired pwoer plants on its own soil... but the sad fact is that California is not energy self-sufficient. According to the Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Technology, California actually imports 21% of its electricity from coal-fired plants in other states.

I guess if it isn't technically in your state you don't have to count it, right? :roll:

Battery powered cars are not the answer. Personally, I'd be more inclined to invest my infrastructure dollars in a hydrogen powered fuel cell economy, but that's just me.

---

Bravo! Wonderfully put! I gotta dig up that article in response to the rancid film An Inconvenient Truth. Says something about the percentages of greenhouse gasses and how the percent generated by humans is very trivial.