Just out of curiosity, what is the best suspension kit/set-up on an NA?

[MoonieGT]

Great info. Thanks for posting that.

[SirHustlerEsq]

Pretty cool slow-motion video on that WC car, and yes, with that set-up it is unloading the main spring under high speed cornering.

But in reality, that's not a common situaiton at all, if the spring length is sized properly. That WC car has what looks to be a very short main spring. I'm sure there was a packaging reason to do that on that K-Pax Volvo.

That was video footage from the Honda.

We tend to size the springs with the ASTs we sell so that they can never come unloaded in normal race or street situations, but rarely do we make it so long that it has preload at full droop. 90% of the AST coilover kits we sell have no tender springs. The only time these "tenderless" springs can unload is when A) the car gets airborne or B) if the car is on a lift and both sides are allowed to droop to full extension. There are very rare instances where that type of set-up can still unload - usually the only time it can happen on the street is when driving over extreme angled entrances or driveways.

I'm pretty close to unloading the front, inside tire in a few places like turn 9 at Hallett, is this a situation where the tender could be beneficial?

I'm on 700/500lb springs too. This condition tells me I have too much roll stiffness in the front, but the "who's who" of fastest Miatas in the country tell me this is not the case and to leave my front sway where it is. I wonder if that 150lb secondary spring could give some travel to put down more front grip in that picture?

There are many cars where it hurts you to have too long of a spring package/tender, especially the fronts of most BMWs. These cars can fit a good bit more wheel inboard if you run a short (6") main spring and no tender. We've managed to fit 18x10" wheels under stock BMW E36 fenders by doing this.

This is not an issue on Miatas since the spring goes well below the tire.

Thanks for chiming in.

[ken o]

I don't think the unloading you experience in cornering is the same as the unload when you jack the car up. I think the swaybar and the force of the turn comes into play and the droop in a turn is much less.

This is a good video of the inside wheel.

[SirHustlerEsq]

I don't think the unloading you experience in cornering is the same as the unload when you jack the car up. I think the swaybar and the force of the turn comes into play and the droop in a turn is much less.

Right, but that little 150-200lb spring is going to increase negative travel thereby increasing traction in this scenario. I don't have the data nor the engineering knowledge to tell me if this is reality or not.

I don't care about jacking the car up or whatever flops around when I'm under the car, lol.

http://www.swiftsprings.com/products...t_springs.html

p.s. lol @ lord helmet

[949Racing]

Regarding the tender springs on Xida's. The reason Terry and a few others haven't needed them on many AST installations is more likely because the free length of the spring would fully extend the shock and still compress enough to allow the correct ride height. This isn't the case with the Xida as they have 105mm rear and 120mm front stroke. To get a front spring long enough when using the coaxial perches would mean an 8" spring. The problem then is that the Miata isn't heavy enough to compress that 700# spring to have the correct ride height. So it becomes necessary to back the preload collar off until the spring is loose. That leaves a significant portion of the valuable droop travel with no spring to utilize it. As Trey mentioned, a loose spring will only rarely come off its perch simply because the sway bar and high rebound rate needed for the main spring can't overcome the wheel's intertia in extension. Watch a WRC car on a bad paved road and notice the huge droop travel they have. Now watch an F1 car and note that there is virtually no droop travel. Reasons? WRC run on shit roads and F1 run on something closer to a billiards table smoothness. As well, F1 aero doesn't work when the car is rolling and pitching all over. The reality is the club tracks and kerbs we run over, autocross lots we use and back roads we attack have a lot more in common with the WRC example than Abu Dhabi.

So the "right" spring for a Xida is the 6 and 5" we use now in combination with the 2" tender. Order without tender and we ship with 1" longer main springs. Any longer and you are carrying redundant weight as well as limiting minimum ride height (oh noes!)

Much of the time spent on the Xida's was squeezing out more stroke while still having maximum bump travel. You don't benefit from that droop travel without the tenders. That said, I spent a few days testing Club Sports with NB mounts and no helpers on a really bumpy, off-camber strewn local track and they still kick ass. So it's not like the Xida's don't work without them, they just work better with them. Because of that, I'm comfortable offering the helpers as an option for those on a tighter budget. But it bears repeating, there is no possible functional reason not to run the helpers. Only reason not to run them is to save the $200 upcharge.

No reason to buy anything from 949racing when AST and Vorshlag are local of DFW. I really like the AST single adjustable setup on jrj512's car.

Different kit. To the best of my knowledge, the few 5000 series kits sold by AST-USA in the last 8 months or so are some leftover prototypes. Some the differences may include valving, stroke, body length, shaft length and piston than the Xida. Similar though. Brian offered them to me early this year and I declined. Stuff we passed through on the way to where we are now basically. Still bitchin shocks but not Xida's.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how buying Xida's from us constitutes not supporting AST-USA as that's where they come from and are serviced anyway. Break a Xida (which is unlikely) and they get fixed in Plano. Same lifetime warranty.

If you want to know the exact differences between the XIDA Clubsports and the AST 5100s, your best bet would be to talk with AST-USA or 949. In my opinion, the better performing shock would be the AST 5100s because you are adjusting rebound only, not both rebound and compression with a single knob. I'm guessing (I have not checked this with AST or 949) the XIDA Clubsports are similar to the Sportline I available in Europe which also adjusts rebound and compression with a single knob. There may be changes to the internal adjustment mechanisms or the valving, but I'm not sure and it would be best to check with AST-USA or 949 for these facts.

The 5100s will be aluminum bodied shocks whereas the XIDA Clubsports may have steel bodies (again not sure on this, just judging by their price point). Another advantage with the 5000 series is their modularity which would allow you to upgrade to 5220s (double adjustable with remote reservoirs) or 5320s (triple adjustable with remote reservoirs) in the future. Most likely the 5100s will also see improvements in their design trickle down from AST's work with the Grand Am and World Challenge racing teams, but I have no idea when/if those upgrades would appear. Overall, both the AST 5100s and the XIDA Clubsports would be a great upgrade from a twin tube style shock and serve you very well.

Hope this helps,
Matt@Vorshlag

As Trey mentioned, the Xida Club Sports are simply Xida's with NB mounts. Exact same 5100 damper as the Xida-S.

Regarding the trickle down, I was pleased and a bit surprised to hear from Brian while talking to him at PRI, that the Xida's would be getting an infusion of trickle down tech from the Grand-Am program. Cool!

Regarding the price, well it's simple. I bought a shitload of them. Economy of scale along with some studious purchasing for the OEM NB hardware, custom made tender springs, Torrington bearings, HDPE couplers, MCU bushings, PU spring seats and so on.

Based on past experience with valving other race cars and bikes over the years I chose to add a small amount of compression damping increase just in the last few clicks of stiffness and it works. It ruffles my feathers a bit when those who have never driven on Xida's in a Miata speculate that the valving Brian and I came up with is somehow inferior to a damper that adjusts rebound only. Drive a set with the proprietary AST mounts we did for the Xidas, fiddle with the adjustments a bit then let us know what you think.

[cone-cerned]

Thank you for posting. We can never have too much information.

And welcome to the forum.

[modernbeat]

I swear he's using Google Alerts to sniff out discussions regarding 949 Racing. Good info.

[tinman831]

And welcome to the forum.

Join date says 2007 :p

[sammm]

Join date says 2007 :p

Post count says 1 :p

[johnwag]

I swear he's using Google Alerts to sniff out discussions regarding 949 Racing. Good info.

or a few local guys clued him into the discussion....

[949Racing]

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&h...f87efc6f926f13

High tech marketing tools

[jrj512]

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&h...f87efc6f926f13

High tech marketing tools

Diabolical.

[modernbeat]

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&h...f87efc6f926f13

High tech marketing tools

Emilio, you should try using Google Alerts. Google will email you any time their spiders uncover something new with any keywords or keyword combination you specify. After a little fine tuning it works fairly well, and you don't have to crawl the web yourself trying to find out if your ears should be burning.

[Miatamoto]

Vorshlag is a local company with great service that keeps two of our Miata buddies gainfully employed (AJ and Matt).

[SirHustlerEsq]

Uh oh, Dad's here. Knowing what I know now, I almost wish I waited for the Xida-S and paid a little more to get the extra stroke and I wish I bought the tenders. However I can't complain, and I have them "non now", not "later now".

[949Racing]

Emilio, you should try using Google Alerts. Google will email you any time their spiders uncover something new with any keywords or keyword combination you specify. After a little fine tuning it works fairly well, and you don't have to crawl the web yourself trying to find out if your ears should be burning.

Familiar with Google Alerts. It has it's place.

[Fair!]

Regarding the tender springs on Xida's. The reason Terry and a few others haven't needed them on many AST installations is more likely because the free length of the spring would fully extend the shock and still compress enough to allow the correct ride height. This isn't the case with the Xida as they have 105mm rear and 120mm front stroke....

This is true, we liked having the tender with the AST NA/NB coilover "5100" version (that had plenty of stroke), but the tenders were optional as well. We also ran them mostly with 6" and 7" springs, and only used 8" lengths on super soft rates. We came to the spring set-ups using a completely different NA/NB shock length and layout than the "XIDA" version, though.

As Emilio knows, Vorshlag used to be AST-USA (these are now separate companies, but Vorshlag still works with AST-USA - buying shocks from them, doing some testing. and supplying camber plates to their dealer network), and back then we did all U.S. testing on new AST models brought into North America. Using our earlier data, AST made the first single adjustable shocks for the NA/NB (and also the RX8/NC) using the data we gathered with several Vorshlag/AST Testers' cars and input, most of which read and post here on DFWMiata, before 949 got into the loop and made his "XIDA" version. These 5100s that we settled on had remote reservoirs and hoses on the rear (see below), but it wasn't by choice. We couldn't get the total shock travel (stroke) we needed at the ride heights our testers wanted with the then-current bottom guides and top mounts AST was using on the NA/NB shocks at the time, without the remotes.



Since then AST has made a more compact bottom guide (bottom eye portion of the shock body) and a taller top mount (which also gained more travel; 949 worked with them on that), and Emilio has since done a lot of length testing using AST bodies using these new pieces. He has indeed found a shock body and shaft length solution that has adequate bump and rebound stroke without the need for a remote reservoir on the back. This has had a direct cost savings as well as a benefit to NASA racers, which have to take class modification points for having shocks with remotes. Its a more cost effective solution and we commend Emilio (and AST/AST-USA) for his testing and perseverance.

Different kit. To the best of my knowledge, the few 5000 series kits sold by AST-USA in the last 8 months or so are some leftover prototypes. Some the differences may include valving, stroke, body length, shaft length and piston than the Xida. Similar though. Brian offered them to me early this year and I declined. Stuff we passed through on the way to where we are now basically. Still bitchin shocks but not Xida's.

hehehe.... I wouldn't call them "leftover prototypes"... These weren't just some old junk shocks; they were more costly single adjustable shocks with the most stroke possible using the design limitations of the shock bodies at that time. We did go through through several iterative designs with AST to get to the length/remote version I show below. We also built and had a tester for stock length AST shocks used on an E Stock racer's car, which were their own headache to build using SCCA's poorly worded shock rules.


AST 5100 production design for NA/NB

It was very much a production AST kit and we sold a number of them to autocrossers and track racers alike for about 2 years like this. But yes, with the remote reservoirs they cost more money, and NASA guys were penalized for the remotes, even though they were still only single adjustables. Vorshlag hasn't purchased many single adjustables in the past ~6 months or so for NA/NB/NC Miatas, since all of our clients lately have opted for more costly 5220 AST double adjustables with remote reservoirs on all 4 corners. These are $4500 shocks only.... obviously not for everyone, but they are an incredible shock; the 5220 is what the GRAND AM shocks are based off of.



Even though we didn't "want" to have to use the remote reservoirs, they do offer several performance advantages, namely more fluid, easily refillable/changeable Nitrogen levels, and more heat dissipation. On endurance race cars you always see remotes used on each corner, to keep the fluid temperature more stable. But again, we did the remotes just to get the stroke needed for the super low ride heights autocrossers demanded. We'd never spec remotes for single adjustable shocks - that's always going to add a lot of cost. We do spec them on most doubles and of course on all triples, however.


VTPP Tester Jerrett Jan's NA Miata raced by him and Thomas Hiromoto in STS using the 5100s

Regarding the price, well it's simple. I bought a shitload of them. Economy of scale ...

True, with private labeling commitments comes much higher ordering quantities and this drives down the price, which 949 passes along to their customers. Its a damn good kit for the money and if you are an NA/NB racer and these fit your budget, the XIDAs should be at the top of your list. Its a real Dutch built, super high quality set of single adjustable monotubes that have great travel and an excellent price. Worth every penny. Since this is a private labeled AST product made for 949, customers can only get these 4100s from Emilio, and he stocks them at his location, offers his own spring package and other upgrades.

Other AST dealers have also worked hard with AST-USA to drive up the annual volumes on other 4100 and 4200 kits and it has had the same effect... in 2010 the AST 4100 kits for E36, E46 and E90 and GD Subarus BMWs went down in price dramatically because of the increase in sales volume. Vorshlag sold about 55+ sets of AST 4100s last year for those cars, which helped a little with the volumes on those lines. And we're obviously just not known for Miata expertise like 949 is, so Emilio will likely stay the market leader for AST in this market for some time.

That said, we do have two employees here at Vorshlag with 3 Miatas between them now, and both are designing, building and testing some new suspension offerings in 2011. Matt's NB will be an STR car (we know - its not the NC that is more dominant in that class) and AJ's cars are track rats. We will post up here with what we're working as soon as we have something worth showing. :)

Cheers,

[949Racing]

Since this is a private labeled AST product made for 949, customers can only get these 4100s from Emilio, and he stocks them at his location, offers his own spring package and other upgrades.

The Xida's are all 5000 series. Always have been.

[OZMDD]

ahh, nothing like a threadjacking pissing match! (tongue-in-cheek)

[Fair!]

The Xida's are all 5000 series. Always have been.

Ahh, sorry for that. That's kinda what I was told in the past, but I honestly don't follow the "XIDA" version that well. On this adjustment type and car model, the 4100/5100 distinction is a little clouded, even to me, and I was part of the group that came up with the naming used on ASTs way back when. I guess all aluminum bodied singles are now called 5100s now, too. Sorry if I wrote that wrong - I really don't know what you'd call the single adjustable shock he sells since Emilio has always marketed this as a "XIDA". That's as good a name as any.

There are now some new digits added to the 4XXX and 5XXX product names, most of which we came up with when we brought AST to North America in 2006 (they used to sell most shocks in Europe as their Sportline I, Sportline II, and Competition; some of these US names have bled to markets over there, some now). We called the non-inverted strut or a steel bodied shocks the "4XXX" (Sportline I based, but with rebound only vs tying the rebound+compression together on one knob like the SL-I). The 5XXX name we came up with indicated an inverted strut (and was Sportline II based), or any inverted shock, or any aluminum bodied shock. The second digit signified the number of adjustments, and now the 3rd digit has to do with style of remote reservoirs, (xx20 and xx30), or none at all (xx10), and there are supposedly more versions coming to this digit soon in some models.

There's even a 6XXX series (rally shocks), an 8xxx series (circle track shocks), and a couple more we don't see or sell much. AST has shocks for all sorts of markets that we never sell - ATVs, snowmobiles, and motorcycles, to name a few.


AST 5220 struts above are inverted (5xxx), double adjustable (x2xx), and have remotes and hoses (xx2x)

So I guess using the latest AST nomenclature maybe you'd call the "XIDA" an AST 5110 and remote reservoir version of the singles as the 5120?I dunno... that's probably a good a guess as any. But this is by no means "official". AST-USA is reading these posts, so if we got something totally wrong here, I'm sure they'd reply, or I'll hear about it and will edit my posts as needed. Like I said, "XIDA" is as accurate a name as anything for what 949 sells. The name existed long before the shocks did, and since he private labels the shocks he could call them whatever he likes. We tend to just stick with the current AST nomenclature and don't do any private label naming.

And please don't take this as a pissing match, I was just trying to clear up some confusion. If I muddled the subject further, I do apologize. 949 has his sector of the AST market, and we have ours, without much overlap at all.

Point of fact: 949Racing/Emilio is now the AST Miata single adjustable coilover market leader, far and away. We haven't done any new development with Miata AST shocks in over 18 months - all of that credit should go to 949 and AST-USA.

Cheers,