Christine- the 93 Miata... a rant

[fwMiata]

read the thread, what was negative about it? nothing seemed out of the ordinary for what it has on it...

[Rob®]

The two biggest red flags to me, from my point of view:

1. What is so finicky about "most" heavily modified FI Miatas? This is news to me. I know quite a few very heavily modified FI Miatas that have no reliability issues whatsoever that are related to having built internals. In fact, the only "finicky" issues any of them have ever had were caused by bad machine work. Which IMO shouldn't be considered finicky; it should be considered poor/incorrect machine work. If supercharged Miatas are known to be finicky, that's new to me (as in I just don't pay attention to them). I don't remember seeing any mention of what was so "finicky" about the car either. I saw that a few parts in particular needed to be replaced, but that doesn't strike me as finicky either, as those were parts that go bad on NA or FI Miatas. From having a FI Miata, I would consider bolts/studs backing out finicky, IC couplers popping off, things like that. Which I think would have been a better choice to use instead of just labeling the car finicky, especially if you guys were the ones that had to deal with them a lot. Either way, instant red flag in my eyes.

2. "It has about $20k worth of work....but nobody has the slightest idea what it is. It might have a built motor and port work that was done where I work....buuuuut, we're not sure." Sounds like the car was a good deal with or without a built motor, but really? I hope the car at least came with receipts so someone actually has the slightest idea what they are looking at before they even considered buying the car. To me that's like buying a car and never opening the hood, "It could have a beaten down 4 cylinder, or it could have a twin turbo V12." I know BR wasn't selling the car, but as much as he was bumping the thread wondering why people weren't buying it, you'd think he'd take 5 minutes and possibly change his "mights" to "it has" so people can be sure. I'm not even talking brands of pistons/rods/whatever, just "yes, it definitely has forged pistons, etc." If he was so concerned with full disclosure since his shop worked on it so much, to me, and maybe it's just me, I would think if there is that much confusion/mystery behind the car, Gary could have been asked ONCE then it could have been posted in the sales thread instead of seemingly annoyed "why is nobody buying this car" posts.

[black roadster]

The engine was built before I worked there so I only know what I heard, no specifics. Again, I was trying to be helpful with the knowledge I had. I even asked Gary what he knew but having built lots of motors for customer cars and the fact that this one was done several years ago, he didn't remember the specifics either.

As for finicky FI Miatas, larger injectors can cause idle issues, a supercharger with a lightened flywheel can cause idle droop, there are way more things to monitor such as AFM, boost level, engine temps, and there are more potential things to go wrong over a normally aspirated car.

You can do a mild setup and keep it pretty reliable but the previous owner's goal was maximum performance and when you make maximum performance your goal, you typically sacrifice reliability and/or drive-ability.

This is not always the case, I know. Mr. BRG has a badass machine that has proven to be reliable as hell. However, he did a lot of research, built the car himself, tuned it himself and bought only the best components.

Maybe I'm too honest but Gary and I both have a habit of setting customer's expectations, even if we don't make the sale. We would rather have a happy customer that knows what to expect rather than make $$$. In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have said anything but, again my whole intention was trying to help potential buyers and not slam the car. I still think the new owner got a great car at a great price.

[Rob®]

All good points, but I still disagree with labeling the car finicky simply because it has FI. Yes there are more things to monitor, but that is part of owning a boosted car. I certainly wouldn't call paying attention to engine temps finicky, especially since you should in an NA car too. If the car wants to overheat or get near it all the time, I would say there is a problem not "oh it's just finicky." Same with boost. If you constantly have to adjust boost settings to account for a tiny change in weather or elevation, absolutely call the car finicky (been there, done that). If the idle sucks because the injectors are far too large, is that considered finicky or just that it has a poor idle? I was blowing Toyota coil packs out at about 200 miles because my LINK runs too much dwell. I wouldn't call that finicky, I would call that not set up correctly. See where I'm going with this?

I'm all for trying to help, but I think your wording didn't. Like I said, if I was looking for a non-stock Miata at the time, I wouldn't have looked twice simply because of the word choice. But I guess I have a different definition of finicky, especially after owning a turbo car of some sort for the last 15 years. And yes, I fully agree it was a good deal for the car, built motor or not (even more so if it was). That's just my opinion, so I'll be quiet now.

[Titus]

Generally speaking IMHO, FI Miatas do tend to be finicky. Rob, I am pretty sure I have seen you post complaints about issues with your FM2 related to repeated manifold stud issues. If that's not finicky, I don't know what is!

[Rob®]

Right, and I said "From having a FI Miata, I would consider bolts/studs backing out finicky, IC couplers popping off, things like that." The issues BR came back with I do not consider finicky in the least.

And I got rid of every last FM2 piece on the car because of how finicky it was (bolts constantly backing out or snapping, downpipe cracking/splitting completely, water lines melting, being hit or miss on if I can run over 18psi...). So yeah, I know all too well how finicky a FI Miata can be. Mine is not "heavily modified" though, it just has rods. And none of the issues the car ever had were due to having internal work done, as little as there was. And as soon as the FM stuff came off, the car was dead nuts reliable..until I would take it apart again to redo/upgrade something. I drove the car 19 hours *straight* only stopping for a few minutes to fill the tank and it had no sign whatsoever of a single problem. Multiple times. Hardly finicky in my eyes.

And to go a step further to show that I know how BR feels about losing money in the interest of being honest/a good character, I threw ALL of the FM2 kit away except the manifold and LINK since I didn't want to deal with the complaints from whomever I sold it all to. I practically gave away the manifold, and I still use the LINK on my car for now.

[Titus]

Being supercharged with a LINK, the issues are different, but there none the less. Actually, I would say that adding the LINK cleared up a lot of the finickyness of mine.

[Rob®]

And I acknowledged that I don't know if superchargers are considered finicky. My argument is that calling the car finicky because it's boosted instead of saying why it's considered finicky was not helping the car sell. It's obvious BR and I have completely different ideas of what a finicky car is, and I'd imagine even more people have different opinions. Which is why I thought it was a poor word choice. that's all I'm getting at.

And you and I must be the few rare people that think the LINK isn't finicky. The only issue I would call finicky is when you try to run over 18psi with it. But you're not supposed to be able to, so the hack is more finicky than anything. But I haven't had any of the problems that the majority of people I know with LINKs have faced, and from what I've read from you, you haven't either. So again, one man's finicky is another man's non-issue.

[sammm]

I think a car has to actually run before it can be considered 'finicky'.

[miataspeedracer]

If you live in the NA world and are used to driving NA cars, FI cars ARE more finicky. To what degree depends on the individual set-up.
If you live in the FI world, another FI car may or may not be finicky, depending on what you are used to.

[Sharpie]

My dad has had 3 different FM kits on his miatas and I have one too. Our experience with FM products has been the opposite of Rob's.

[black roadster]

...one man's finicky is another man's non-issue.

That pretty much sums it up. Don't fault me for calling the car finicky if you can't place it in my context. I didn't know I had to elaborate on it. So let me. A car dying when coming to a stop light unless you blip the throttle and then keep the revs up or having to readjust idle when using A/C is my definition of finicky. I'm coming from a normally aspirated experience though which has none of these "non-issues". YMMV

[Rob®]

If you live in the FI world, another FI car may or may not be finicky, depending on what you are used to.

This is exactly what I was saying, just much shorter. And exactly why I think it was not helping.

Lol my car runs, thanks. It can run finicky-ly with the COPs and I have to replace them ~200 miles, or it can run on the stock ignition parts with low boost. And my car sits because I keep taking it apart and lost the motivation to bother putting it back together. I've put more than 60k miles on the car in a period of 4 years (between winters, forgetting I own it, etc - I've owned it for almost 10 years now), nearly all of that boosted more than what most people call a "normal" amount.

[Rob®]

Don't fault me for calling the car finicky if you can't place it in my context.

Which is why I think it was a bad word choice in trying to help sell the car. Say I was a potential buyer - we all technically are if you think about it. You called the car finicky (and said it had a reputation as such, even a nickname because of it) with absolutely no explanation of why you consider it so. You really think that helps sell the car? There are at least three of us in this thread that don't think so. Sorry I tried to go into more detail about why I personally thought it was a poor choice.

[SirHustlerEsq]

Right, and I said "From having a FI Miata, I would consider bolts/studs backing out finicky, IC couplers popping off, things like that." The issues BR came back with I do not consider finicky in the least.

If you're runing under SM lap records in a turbo Miata, your turbo-manifold hardware is failing. There are three ways to get around this and all are used in TXMC: welding the turbo to the manifold (lol, it works), Inconel studs and bolts, V-bands with Inco CHRA hardware and Inco safety wire. On the street, they are probably not necessary, but your life will be a failure if you are not tracking your turbo Miata and Jehova will not bestow his graces upon you.

Being supercharged with a LINK, the issues are different, but there none the less. Actually, I would say that adding the LINK cleared up a lot of the finickyness of mine.

Yes, real engine management works!!!

If you live in the NA world and are used to driving NA cars, FI cars ARE more finicky. To what degree depends on the individual set-up.
If you live in the FI world, another FI car may or may not be finicky, depending on what you are used to.

Most of the time people fail in execution in general.

My dad has had 3 different FM kits on his miatas and I have one too. Our experience with FM products has been the opposite of Rob's.

It's pretty cool when all the bolt-holes line-up on a $2700 turbo kit. I wouldn't know anything about this because I bought another kit initially and I still kick myself for it. What a shame.

A car dying when coming to a stop light unless you blip the throttle and then keep the revs up or having to readjust idle when using A/C is my definition of finicky. I'm coming from a normally aspirated experience though which has none of these "non-issues". YMMV

That is totally unacceptable for me, how do people live with that garbage?

Lol my car runs, thanks. It can run finicky-ly with the COPs and I have to replace them ~200 miles, or it can run on the stock ignition parts with low boost.

Do you know how dwell time works? Reduce it, lol. Let me know if you need help with this.

It seems to me like a lot of these "finicky" comments are about low standards. Any and every car I've tuned does everything better than it did from the factory aside from one thing...IAT heat-soak closed-loop idle control. However, I can make it manageable. There are supercharged cars like Speed's that go to and from the track time after time without a wrench. There is just about 1 turbo car that goes to and from the track without getting out the wrenches all season. It can be done, it takes time and attention to detail. to me "finicky" means "lazy".

[Rob®]

It's pretty cool when all the bolt-holes line-up on a $2700 turbo kit. I wouldn't know anything about this because I bought another kit initially and I still kick myself for it. What a shame.

I paid a lot more for my FM2 kit back in 2003. When I bought it I had already made 2 or 3 turbo setups for friends' Miatas. I bit the bullet and bought the FM for myself. Boy did that bite me in the ass.

Do you know how dwell time works? Reduce it, lol. Let me know if you need help with this.

Yes. I made my COPS a long time ago. I never saw there was a dwell issue with them till I just put them on the car fairly recently. To be honest, I assumed you could adjust dwell with the LINK when I made them - I know the tuning manual for it mentions it, I just never had a reason to tinker with it so I never read that you couldn't until it became a problem. I bought an unused BDE dwell reducer, but it was from the first run..which I did not see didn't work until I tried to install it and the car would not even start. I believe I just figured out why it doesn't work (which I have yet to see anyone has solved previously), so once my parts for it get here Friday I hope to break out the soldering station this weekend. But this is why my car has not moved the last few months (besides the whole winter thing). I was back and forth on finally scrapping the LINK so I can adjust dwell, or trying to figure out what the issue with the BDE piece was. I just bought stock ignition stuff for it till I made that decision, but like I said I am pretty sure I figured out the dwell reducer. So I'll keep the LINK and band-aid for now since it does the job well enough. If I can't get the dwell redcuer to work I am installing the stock parts, turning the boost down, and will reconsider a new ECU (I would do more than just replace the ECU, which is why I've been putting it off). Thanks for the offer though.

If I end up getting the MS3 I was planning on if it came to it, I am all about asking you for help.

[SirHustlerEsq]

I paid a lot more for my FM2 kit back in 2003. When I bought it I had already made 2 or 3 turbo setups for friends' Miatas. I bit the bullet and bought the FM for myself. Boy did that bite me in the ass.




Yes. I made my COPS a long time ago. I never saw there was a dwell issue with them till I just put them on the car fairly recently. To be honest, I assumed you could adjust dwell with the LINK when I made them - I know the tuning manual for it mentions it, I just never had a reason to tinker with it so I never read that you couldn't until it became a problem. I bought an unused BDE dwell reducer, but it was from the first run..which I did not see didn't work until I tried to install it and the car would not even start. I believe I just figured out why it doesn't work (which I have yet to see anyone has solved previously), so once my parts for it get here Friday I hope to break out the soldering station this weekend. But this is why my car has not moved the last few months (besides the whole winter thing). I was back and forth on finally scrapping the LINK so I can adjust dwell, or trying to figure out what the issue with the BDE piece was. I just bought stock ignition stuff for it till I made that decision, but like I said I am pretty sure I figured out the dwell reducer. So I'll keep the LINK and band-aid for now since it does the job well enough. If I can't get the dwell redcuer to work I am installing the stock parts, turning the boost down, and will reconsider a new ECU (I would do more than just replace the ECU, which is why I've been putting it off). Thanks for the offer though.

If I end up getting the MS3 I was planning on if it came to it, I am all about asking you for help.

Dwell reduction circuits can work but you basically have the option of reducing charge time one dimensionally rather than running a dwell-reduction/MAP table like we can in MS2-3. Are you using Jason Caudra's dwell reduction circuit design?

[Rob®]

Yes. The BDE piece uses Jason's design (assuming Jason Caudra is JasonSBCC or whatever). However, it does not work. If you search, you'll see a few comments about it not working and a few "nobody knows why" remarks as well. As I said, I am pretty sure I just figured it out. So that alone should say that I know what I am doing :)

I originally wanted to find just a blank circuit board of Jason's design, but couldn't find any so I contacted Jason himself. He said he had a new design he wanted to try. I said I'd be more than willing to geniea pig it, and even offered to front the money to run a batch of some. We went back and forth a few times, then I never heard from him again, so I went back to my original plan. I found someone selling a completed BDE piece that is/was Jason's design, so I bought it. Had I known that the BDE pieces didn't work for anyone, I would have just made my own circuit board using the same design. But I got it for next to nothing, it has never even been installed, and it's smaller than it would have been if I just bread-boarded it. So as long as it works once I make changes, I'm happy enough.

But yeah, I've wanted to get rid of the LINK for years. Not because it doesn't work or is problematic, but because I know it leaves a good deal of power/adjustablility on the table. Replacing it is far down the list though, unless I can't get this dwell reducer to work.

[miataspeedracer]

You two--get a room and get your dwell on...

[Rob®]

Bah. Might as well turn this thread into something slightly productive.