PCA AX School---need instructors

[OZMDD]

I'm not trashing PCA, but they have been very inconsistent in the way they run events, post results, follow course-design rules, and I've gotten and seen others get very frosty receptions from them at some events, others they've been nice. There is a pretty strong vibe that they consider their events "for Porsche owners" and others are tolerated. That's not my idea of a good time, and why I suspect they get trashed by some and can't get instructors for the school.

Even BMW - which still has a separate classing for their own cars - has embraced the "other" cars and drivers and made efforts to provide classing and awards to those drivers who keep the club solvent. I thought it was classy when they gave year-end trophies for X,Y and Z, and those are the only real contested classes at the events. PCA classing for the "others" is so confusing that even they don't give you the same answer twice.

Again, its about feeling like you are welcome and wanted. Try showing up to their TT in a Yaris and see how many folks come and say "hi."

[TxCoyote]

Try showing up to their TT in a Yaris and see how many folks come and say "hi."

If you came to my house in a Yaris my dogs would pee on it and my cat would think it was a litter box Sorry couldn't resist

[Maniac Mitch]

Ok, let me try this again. I respect everyone's opinion, and why you have it. Mine is different because my exposure to the group in question is different. The SCCA AX school is to teach someone to compete in AX and hopefully do well enough in their events to reach national level competition. I don't believe the Porsche club is trying to do that. They do have a national level event (in Salt Lake City in July this year) and it has a national AX event. But it is nothing like the SCCA nationals. There is competition and bragging rights, but NOT like SCCA. The main purpose of the Mav AX school, IMHO, is to get people with a new sports car to see what their car can do. To get them to understand it can do a lot more than their driving training instructor in High School told them. Many of the students have fairly new cars...or at least are fairly new to their cars. Just like when helping instruct at Mineral Wells, I don't abuse the student's car to try and prove anything. I don't believe that most of the Mav instructors try to prove anything either. That's not the purpose. We want the student to learn more about the limits of their cars and to gain confidence in their car and start to develop their own abilities. This school is not trying to develop the next CSP champion.

The Mav Classing is not that difficult...but don't expect the Porsche owners to know where your car should be. If you come to an event knowing what class you would run in SCCA, they can put you in a class 1-9X. There is a worksheet on their website that you can print out and follow the instructions and bring it and they will be grateful and you will breeze through checkin. They switched to the SCCA based classing for "other" cars a couple of years ago because of constructive input.

I've been running with them since 1985, and have been a member since 1999. They know me. I usually get any students with powerful V8 cars because I ran a V8 240Z for a while. I get the Miatas because I now drive a Miata. Most of my students do a few events and never come back...it's not their thing. But I do see former students running events all the time. One in particular is now an instructor for their DE track events...a level higher than I feel comfortable doing. But I do really enjoy working these events. Seeing someone who is real timid with their car get bolder and bolder...see the literal grin from ear to ear because they are starting to understand the car does talk to them, is very rewarding...you could say addicting.

Maniac Mitch

[TxCoyote]

I think the classing rules are laid down by PCA USA as are the other rules of the event. I agree with some of the guys that the PCA events are not up to the same standards as the others but you get more runs (usually 10-12). I have spoken with Robin and Travis and Tannia in the past about participating in other club's events but they are not interested in doing so for whatever reason. The people are great to work with but I think those who regularly attend the 4 other club's events don't like the fact it is run differently.

[Maniac Mitch]

I think the classing rules are laid down by PCA USA as are the other rules of the event. I agree with some of the guys that the PCA events are not up to the same standards as the others but you get more runs (usually 10-12). I have spoken with Robin and Travis and Tannia in the past about participating in other club's events but they are not interested in doing so for whatever reason. The people are great to work with but I think those who regularly attend the 4 other club's events don't like the fact it is run differently.

Interesting...Russ may have hit on it for me. I don't attend any other club's events, so I am ok with the way the Mav events work. Hadn't thought of that angle before. I'm just not into it enough to do more than 6-7 events a year...I'm too old to punish my bod more than that. Thanks for helping me understand where you guys are coming from better.

Maniac Mitch

[TxCoyote]

That would be me, the great illuminator. Now Mikey, about that Yaris.....................

[Robert]

The one thing I don’t like about a lot of their autocross courses is sometime they have very tight turns where you need to go to first gear. I would recommend not making any turns tighter than 50ft. radius, preferable 75ft. and not pinch the entrance AND exit of a turn (no line choice). I think this would make your courses flow better and be more fun. On slaloms don’t making them tighter than 45 ft spacing, 60ft is a much better spacing.

I have a course design handbook that’s very good reading for anybody doing a course. If anybody wants a PDF of it, PM me your e-mail address and I will sent you a copy.

[altiain]

I instructed with the Maverick Region PCA for several years in the early 2000s, and ran a lot of their events. I haven’t run with them in a few years, and after running one of their autocrosses last month, I probably won’t run with them much any more.

The PCA people are great, no doubt about that. I’ve always gotten along with them all down the years. Travis and Robyn are good people.

However, Maverick PCA needs to improve several aspects of their events:

• Course Design – the course I ran last month was really, really bad. In the morning my fastest lap required SIX downshifts to first. It had no flow and it was hard on the equipment. Long story short, Gabby and I ended up redesigning over half the course during the lunch break. I've hardly ever seen a pivot cone or a skidpad outside of a PCA event, where they seem to be very common.
• Results posting – That event was four weeks ago. Results still hadn’t been posted the last time I checked. Every other club manages to get results up within a day or two – usually within 24 hours.
• Perceived exclusivity – I was the second person to sign up and pay for the first PCA time trial at MSR a few years ago. Even though I was (literally) a card carrying PCA member at the time, I still ended up getting bumped off the registration list by people who actively owned Porsches and those who had attended more time trials that season (I had been traveling a lot that year and had not attended any other events). That left a bad taste in my mouth, and I hadn’t signed up for a PCA event since then until last month. PCA members are less likely to attend any other club’s events, and so they can be seen as non-receptive to outsiders. Heck, up until a year or two ago they didn’t even publish non-Porsche results!

The reality is, we have a lot of quality autocross options here in DFW. If you want National level competition and courses, there is SCCA and ER. If you want friendly competition, great organization, good courses, and timely results, there is NTAXS and BMWCCA. If you want to run time trials, there are Texas Time Trials.

Unless you own a Porsche, there is no compelling reason to choose a PCA event over the other options in DFW. Until that changes, they are going to continue to struggle.

That’s just my $.02 as someone who was formerly quite active with Maverick Region, even though I’ve never owned a p-car.

[Maniac Mitch]

Ian, glad to see someone else writes mini-books on forums besides me. The results of PCA AX1 were posted about a week ago. Go check it out…lots of detail. But we don’t seem to have a club member with the skills or desire to post those results. Last I heard, Dean Y. (red Z06) was doing it for us. Well, beggars can’t be pushy.

All the really good PCA drivers in AX and TT migrate to Club Racing. We always loose the good ones after a couple of years, and when I check stats, there they are doing Club Racing. I guess it’s the Porsche way. AX and TT are merely training grounds for track racing. There are a few of us old geezers that stick with AX or TT events…probably because of the expense. Not actually having a Porsche anymore plays in here for me also. Club Racing requires a Porsche with Porsche engine. So that is why you don’t see them running AX with other clubs…IMHO. Their goals are different. And, pardon the rub,no one has made any movies with Steve McQeen driving an S2000 or a Miata at Lemans. 

I’m still posting hoping to help you guys understand where they are coming from also… now that I have a better perspective on you guys. BTW, I cut/pasted Robert’s comments about AX events and sent to the AX chair, I’ll do the same with part of Ian’s comments that can be constructive moving forward. Will let you know how it was received.

Maniac Mitch

[CosmosMpower]

And, pardon the rub,no one has made any movies with Steve McQeen driving an S2000 or a Miata at Lemans. Maniac Mitch

Last I checked no one at a Mav PCA event drove a 917. I'd rather drive a S2000 or Miata than a clapped out 35 year old 914 with a 4 banger or a 25 year old 911 like most the local members. Rick G's 6 cyl swapped 914 is pretty cool though.

[OZMDD]

Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif

[TxCoyote]

Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif

[jbh]

That would be me, the great illuminator. Now Mikey, about that Yaris.....................

Was there a soup kitchen in the back of that car?

[OZMDD]

Was there a soup kitchen in the back of that car?

1T	st	33	MIKE McSHANE	08 YARIS	87.567	86.488	86.886	86.097	70.427
									-
2T	stu	141	BRIAN LEE	98 CAMARO	85.431	82.922+2	83.462+1	85.373	71.371
									0.944
3T	ds	5	PATRICK GONDI	02 AUDI A4	90.100	88.419+1	85.548+2	87.215+2	73.339
									1.968
4T	cs	23	JOE CHANGIZIAN	01 MIATA	91.365+dnf	89.806	89.939+5	87.413+1	74.838
									1.499
5	st	4	GREGORY PFAFF	HONDA S2000	98.249+dnf	94.915	93.064	92.234	75.447
									0.609
6	csp	19	CONNOR LANDRUM	07 MX-5	97.503+dnf	108.234+dnf	89.379+1	87.669+1	77.294
									1.847
7	sts	36	CHRISTOPHER DEBBUS	90 BMW 325 IS	102.511+dnf	98.147+dnf	96.990+1	95.769	78.530
									1.236
8	fs	311	LANCE CLARK	07 DODGE CHARGER	99.216	97.980+dnf	95.587	95.518+1	79.624
									1.094
9	as	11	JOHN PFAFF	HONDA S2000	97.977+1	95.172	93.507+1	93.345+1	80.230
									0.606
10	as	32	EDUARDO SEGOVIA	S2000

yes.

[CosmosMpower]

yes.

If there's a soup kitchen, that's some fast food!

[ken o]

I thought the Yari was a Pie Wagon.




And while I am here

[TxCoyote]

[QUOTE=ken o;261585]I thought the Yari was a Pie Wagon.


Put a soul patch on it and that's Mikey's picture!

[nomadtrash]

1T	st	33	MIKE McSHANE	08 YARIS	87.567	86.488	86.886	86.097	70.427
									-
2T	stu	141	BRIAN LEE	98 CAMARO	85.431	82.922+2	83.462+1	85.373	71.371
									0.944
3T	ds	5	PATRICK GONDI	02 AUDI A4	90.100	88.419+1	85.548+2	87.215+2	73.339
									1.968
4T	cs	23	JOE CHANGIZIAN	01 MIATA	91.365+dnf	89.806	89.939+5	87.413+1	74.838
									1.499
5	st	4	GREGORY PFAFF	HONDA S2000	98.249+dnf	94.915	93.064	92.234	75.447
									0.609
6	csp	19	CONNOR LANDRUM	07 MX-5	97.503+dnf	108.234+dnf	89.379+1	87.669+1	77.294
									1.847
7	sts	36	CHRISTOPHER DEBBUS	90 BMW 325 IS	102.511+dnf	98.147+dnf	96.990+1	95.769	78.530
									1.236
8	fs	311	LANCE CLARK	07 DODGE CHARGER	99.216	97.980+dnf	95.587	95.518+1	79.624
									1.094
9	as	11	JOHN PFAFF	HONDA S2000	97.977+1	95.172	93.507+1	93.345+1	80.230
									0.606
10	as	32	EDUARDO SEGOVIA	S2000

Farmer Ted of the autocross world.

[Dean!]

I instructed with the Maverick Region PCA for several years in the early 2000s, and ran a lot of their events. I haven’t run with them in a few years, and after running one of their autocrosses last month, I probably won’t run with them much any more.

The PCA people are great, no doubt about that. I’ve always gotten along with them all down the years. Travis and Robyn are good people.

However, Maverick PCA needs to improve several aspects of their events:

• Course Design – the course I ran last month was really, really bad. In the morning my fastest lap required SIX downshifts to first. It had no flow and it was hard on the equipment. Long story short, Gabby and I ended up redesigning over half the course during the lunch break. I've hardly ever seen a pivot cone or a skidpad outside of a PCA event, where they seem to be very common.
• Results posting – That event was four weeks ago. Results still hadn’t been posted the last time I checked. Every other club manages to get results up within a day or two – usually within 24 hours.
• Perceived exclusivity – I was the second person to sign up and pay for the first PCA time trial at MSR a few years ago. Even though I was (literally) a card carrying PCA member at the time, I still ended up getting bumped off the registration list by people who actively owned Porsches and those who had attended more time trials that season (I had been traveling a lot that year and had not attended any other events). That left a bad taste in my mouth, and I hadn’t signed up for a PCA event since then until last month. PCA members are less likely to attend any other club’s events, and so they can be seen as non-receptive to outsiders. Heck, up until a year or two ago they didn’t even publish non-Porsche results!

The reality is, we have a lot of quality autocross options here in DFW. If you want National level competition and courses, there is SCCA and ER. If you want friendly competition, great organization, good courses, and timely results, there is NTAXS and BMWCCA. If you want to run time trials, there are Texas Time Trials.

Unless you own a Porsche, there is no compelling reason to choose a PCA event over the other options in DFW. Until that changes, they are going to continue to struggle.

That’s just my $.02 as someone who was formerly quite active with Maverick Region, even though I’ve never owned a p-car.

I'm digging up this old horse because TXCoyote recently mentioned this to me and thought this post was a good summary.

On Course Design - you are absolutely right! The 2012 AutoX chair (Al Silva) is new this year and is offering free event entry for anyone who helps design the course, and he recognizes he is new and and was very open-minded to anyone helping to change his course, ie. you and Gabby. He's a super-friendly guy and would definitely welcome any course designers and hints/tips.

On Results - well sometime in 2011 after waiting some 3+ months for results, I said, "Hey, I'll volunteer, I work with Excel in IT, just show me how it is to be done." Up until Dec. 2011, there were some issues in obtaining scanned copies of the hand-logs and getting raw data from the old laptop, some of which had gone missing. I'm not even a PCA member and I pay non-PCA prices for all events, but I was willing to do it just to see the results. For this past PCA events' results, completely MY fault, as soon as I had all the data I needed, it was like it jinxed me at work (and no-sleep didn't help either ). PCA results will likely take a minimum of 72 hours because hand logs are scanned in the next business day and then emailed to me and then I await the data files. For future 2012 events, I plan to use my camera to take a picture of the hand logs and hopefully their laptop is new enough to allow USB and I can copy the raw data files before leaving for the day. However, for events I don't attend, that's where I'll need help from anybody with a camera phone and I'll even give you a USB flash drive to copy the raw data files and email to me. I even offered to donate a scanner/copier/printer to keep in their truckster, but hadn't heard back. The sooner I can start, the better. Most clubs can post within 24 hours because they are usually the same people attending the event and their timing software is leagues ahead and some of the results are spit out automatically. My *ultimate* goal is to continually automate as much of the manual process as I can, to hopefully auto-post the same day! I will make the pledge to post a copy of the hand-logs that anyone emails me, the same day of the event; while I await the raw data.

On the MSR-bump thing, for their inaugural event they had sent/posted a few reminders that the # of events attended took priority, because it was a PCA member who runs a business at MSR who secured the site and they didn't want to lose future privileges. With this PCA member's pull, they were able to offer 12 hot laps at MSR on a *Saturday* for ~$40. Definitely pretty hard to get a small taste of MSR for that low of an entry fee.

Anyhoo, they are good people with good intentions and as every club has turnover in chairs, there's some cyclic growing pains... Their time trials are excellent deals and hopefully more people will return to autocrossing with them as their new chairs gain experience from others and pass it down.

-Dean!