I didn't see the guy with no numbers on his car, but I did go grab the closest safety guy to bitch about the Mustang doing donuts only to see the Boss man give him a warning....
You make it sound like we do nothing at these events, and that is an incorrect assumption on your part.
So what you are saying is since we didn't throw a tantrum and stomp our feet during the event (which would further delay things), pointing out the problems we all observed now serves no purpose?Originally Posted by JStankus
Here's a thought. Take the feedback from today and carry it forward to future events and make them even better!
I hope you're not taking all this personally John. You seem to be acting in behalf of the regional SCCA, and that's where this feedback is aimed at.
I think what JStankus is saying is he's reached his "terminal bash capacity".
Sorry JS... we aren't really beating you up, although I know it feels like that sometimes. We are frustrated with some things, and you're the only SCCA Board Member willing to hang around here and listen to our... suggestions. Thanks :)
Oops... wrote this whole thing and remembered what my momma always said... So I'm adding this at the beginning.
POSITIVE FEEDBACK!!!!
I was delighted to see that current key members of the board were taking a very careful look at a spin near the finish that (gasp!!!) could have (just barely remotely possibly) dumped a car upside down and analyzing ways to avoid such spins in the future. Way to go, guys!!!
Well... the rest is not so positive, but it's absolutely 100% necessary if anyone supporting the SCCA expects anything positive to happen anytime soon...
Selfishness by one of our participants means we're adding yet another 10 seconds to the driver's meeting to announce:
"Anyone checking in for a work assignment may proceed ONLY to that work assignment. Don't check in until you're ready to work."
For the second time this year, I've managed the privilege of a trailer shift to cover someone who skipped out on us.
Feedback #2?
Make sure we remember to put cones AFTER rather than before the timing lights when we set the course up so we don't have to change things after the end of heat 1.
Feedback #3?
We've got to put an end to random enforcement of rules. Mustang driver? Get his name, and ban him. Period. That's what we said we'd do, so we have to do it.
If Garcia can't get his car rolling without tire spin, he needs to find another sport. I heard at least twenty people (no doubt the ones that he pissed on during tech) complain about tire spin from the 67 car in grid.
Winged Civic pilot? Find a baby sitter or stay home. No kids in grid. You've been warned and warned and warned. Consider just bringing your kids out to let them race. Then you don't have to work during the event.
We need to start rewarding folks who are willing to do the hard jobs. Computer, Scribe, Penalties/Control and Starters need to work as a team. We need to support the vote of the board of directors to quash class run order to allow the return of season long 4 person teams in the trailer/start.
Ouch. Thank you for your support.I think what JStankus is saying is he's reached his "terminal bash capacity".
Sorry JS... we aren't really beating you up, although I know it feels like that sometimes. We are frustrated with some things, and you're the only SCCA Board Member willing to hang around here and listen to our... suggestions. Thanks :)
It's just frustrating. I year or two ago I used to joke that it was a miracle if ER could get a car on course by noon. Nowadays, they run one heck of a show - last event notwithstanding, although most of those problems were weather related. But ER has really stepped up and put on good quality events this season.
Texas Region, on the other hand, has gone in the opposite direction. They used to run like clockwork, but this season it has looked more like they're trying to stay one step ahead of disaster... and sometimes falling short. Unfortunately, the problems seem so numerous that it's hard to even develop a plan of attack to address them - 3 run events, timer/computer/equipment problems, worker no-shows, veteran prima donnas, corner working quality, etc.
I think one of the biggest root causes is the event size. It's a hell of a lot easier to put on a quality event for 100 or 150 people than it is for 200+ people. Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the few (if only) members who would support an event cap. Personally, I don't think most of the other systemic problems are going to get better until you start capping events.
It's high time Texas Region learned to put on a quality show for a smaller crowd, and worked on fine-tuning the system (control, equipment, worker training, etc.) at that level, before they try to run events for 200+ people, imho. Oncew the people and the processes are trained and capable of efficiently handling smaller-sized events, then I think it would be acceptable to start moving the cap upwards. But right now there are too few people with too little knowledge trying to handle too many tasks to run events for too many people, imho. We have some well trained and dedicated people (TC and JStankus, for example), but there aren't enough of them to go around.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Well, first off I want to make sure folks know I appreciate the efforts they do make Lauren, Rich, Iain, Hal and everyone else. (sorry I haven't quite connected screen names with real names).I think what JStankus is saying is he's reached his "terminal bash capacity".
Sorry JS... we aren't really beating you up, although I know it feels like that sometimes. We are frustrated with some things, and you're the only SCCA Board Member willing to hang around here and listen to our... suggestions. Thanks :)
I'm a little bit tired this morning, and maybe my reaction to the Clown car picture came off a bit brash. I apologize if my comments were taken in a wrong light.
John
No need to apologize. Venting is a 2-way street. My clown-car picture was meant to get your (or whoever's) attention and it seems to have worked.
Come on. Tailchaser does quite a bit behind the scenes helping hold things together (and keeping me out of trouble by knowing some of the folks better than I do). Thanks TC
John
Yes, that was good of them to look into that... However, it really was only looked into after the heat 2 corner workers pointed out that "we might want to look at that" as the last gate and the extreme enforcement of the hard braking zone after the finish left about half of the cars *extremely* unsettled in the braking zone. In that heat alone I watched two off tracks, one spin, and several other "near misses" I do agree that it was a situation that warranted improvement, good job!
100% agreement
While he has done a half decent job of keeping that car under control this year (compared to last year) I personally believe that that car is downright dangerous on an autoX course. If he wants to drive that fine.. Take it to a road course, not a parkinglot with pedistrians scattered around. I don't care how important your job is in the organiation, but if you cannot reach a speed where your car is remotely effective (giant wings don't do anything on an autoX course.. ESPECIALLY when you're going sideways) Ok [/rant]
All in all the SCCA is doing a great job, and I do thank the hard work of all the people attempting to make it right, but it really seems almost like there are too many people with too big of egos that just keep getting in the way and screwing a lot of thing up. I'll continue to attend my
Ok... I"m done.. So what are we doing next year? I'm still selecting my SCCA races by venue.. I dunno if you could pay me to blow a whole day for 3 runs at the midget Pennington lot.
Agreed. Said individuals should also be banned from attendance for a minimum of a calendar year, imho. No questions, no excuses, no second chances. Skipping your work assignment is bad enough, checking in and then skipping your work assignment is not only a crappy thing to do, but it shows deliberate intent to deceive. I don't want people like that at our events, period.
Agreed. See my comment above - in my opinion, doing something like this in the pits is enough of a safety violation to warrant banishment in my opinion. We warn against crap like this at every event I've ever attended, and I don't care if he was done for the day at the time or not. A warning isn't sufficient - send him packing immediately and let it be known that he won't be welcomed back.
Agreed, again. It is time to stop applying the rules differently to different people. I don't care if JG is a board member with ER & Texas Region, he has to abide by the same rules, regulations, and standards of behavior as the rest of us. In fact, given his position I think he ought to be held to a higher standard as an example to the newcomers.
I don't know what that's about, but it sounds like it ties into my previous comments on uniform application of the rules and standards for behavior for everyone.
Agreed. Hopefully next season's changes will allow for some improvements.
Iain
"We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
Good point Tailchaser. And I guess onething and altiain should feel slighted too, as I think they are on the SCCA Board as well. Did I miss anyone? I don't know who is officially "on the Board" and who just regularly attends their meetings (POS Racing?).
Sorry for getting it wrong... again...
"Where was the General and SOLO2M3?"
At Mineral Wells enjoying 8 runs and great weather with the LSBMWCCA.
Even got into 4th on the usual straight on the East side of M.W. And the General had a rare grin on his face after heat #1 and #2.
I managed to get 7 of 8 runs before the silly German car decided to puke coolant. Only took 3 bottles of Wal Mart Pure Spring Water to get home.
I've got 1st in class wrapped up with SCCA but YTD points are still a dogfight with the BMW club. And my 2nd place finish yesterday didn't help.
Jim H.
OUTRACE was at the BMW event also. Think we all had a great time. There where about 52 drivers. Sure this belongs in the BMW autocross thread but what is it about Mustang drivers and tire spinning donuts. A BMW and a Mustang both made about $150 dollars worth of black marks after the event.
My point is that in the effort of keeping the event running smoothly in the event of a mechanical failure the trailer can, in a pinch, accomodate this. Not that this should be a habbit. I cannot however see the person coming up to the start a second time around with the wrong number / class.Being able to accomodate this in the Trailer is not the point. What if everyone just decided not to put on numbers... could we accomodate that? Sure, we could, but why should we have to? There are strict rules in the SCCA (in particular) about car numbering -- so-and-so tall, by so-and-so wide. These rules are there to reduce the effort that everyone has to make in order to properly identify cars.
And it's not just the Trailer... what about the course workers? This unmarked car hits two cones. How does corner 4 call this in? "uh... the uh... purdy little convertible just hit two cones...". Sorry, but my computer screen didn't have "Purdy Little Convertible" listed on it anywhere.
Don't excuse poor management/execution just because you and the Trailer can "accomodate this". The point is, you shouldn't have too...
Unfortunately, I think it's easier for them to come to the line with "bad numbers" the second time around... if you don't stop them the first time. They think to themselves "He, he, he... I made it the first time. Why would they stop me the second or third time around?" What I'm saying is you'd have to make a big deal about it the first time.
But for me, there's a bigger issue that is disappointing about this particular instance. This wasn't some noob Novice making a mistake because he/she didn't know any better. This was [apparently] the Vice President of Spokes, a well respected, and well established autocross organization in the Austin area (I think). He knew better. And he came up to the line like that anyway. Sorry, there just isn't any excuse.
I have half a mind to go to one of their events and do the same thing to them. I feel quite sure they would pitch a bitch at me for coming to the starting line like that.
Having been on the board at Spokes for several years before I moved up here, I think it would not have been a big deal.
I have half a mind to go to one of their events and do the same thing to them. I feel quite sure they would pitch a bitch at me for coming to the starting line like that.
Honestly, I don't see why folks are so cranked up about the numbers on a borrowed car due to a mechanical.
***I may regret this since I am pretty tired today...
But do the folks up here in the DFW area generally not like each other?
I've heard so much about "they"
"they" the modified prima donnas
"they" the noobies
"they" the only come out when they feel like it
"they" the ricers
"they" the muscle car thugs
what about "us" the autocrossers
Some of 'us' have cars that have special needs that need to be accomodated,
Some of 'us' are new and need to learn the ropes and have experienced folks help teach us the right way to do things
some of 'us' enjoy coming out to play occasionally, but are not hardcore competitive
Some of 'us' like to dress our cars up
Some of 'us' gotta have a V8 (I don't exactly fit in a Miata)
But all of 'us' enjoy autocrossing
John
Well, I guess we are going to seriously disagree after all. I think it boils down to two things for me. I expect the "Big-Wigs" to:
- Follow the rules.
- Lead by Example.
Neither of these seems to be high on the leadership's list of "things to do". We make exceptions at every event, not for the general rank-n-file -- us autocrossers, us Novices, us people who have mechanical problems with our cars (like broken lug nuts, or corded tires) -- but for the people who are in charge. Want names? You've gotten two direct, specific examples in this thread alone (Holt, Garcia).
Do you think one of us grunts could have shown up at the Start with numbers like that? And more to the point, do you think any of us grunts would have even tried? No, we know better. We know the rules and follow them, and us Novices that "break" the rules, typically do so because we don't know any better. On the other hand, the experienced leaders in the SCCA know better. Garcia is the TECH CHIEF for God's sake - and complains incessantly about Tommy Saunders car -- but he still does burn-outs in the paddock and has to be pushed to the line in his car. How does his conscience even allow him to yell at us Novices for having letters that are .25" too narrow?
Are there Board Members who are doing the right things and trying to make a difference? Sure there are (heck, it should be those Board Members who are raising the biggest fuss with the offending Board Members, since those offenders make you all look bad). Can us grunts help? Sure, and it starts by (1) following the rules, and working hard at whatever job we are doing. From my viewpoint, we (meaning us autocrossers, particularly us Miata Pilots who are for the most part "self-policing") are doing both of those things.
But the SCCA Board's favoritism and elitism remains at the heart of the problem. The rules simply do not apply to the "Big-Wigs", and from the tone of your last post, you are apparently ready to let it ride. Yep, we're gonna disagree my friend...
I had fun, was schooled by The General, discovered there are drivers worse than I, and figured out what I should do to my car next.OUTRACE was at the BMW event also. Think we all had a great time. There where about 52 drivers. Sure this belongs in the BMW autocross thread but what is it about Mustang drivers and tire spinning donuts. A BMW and a Mustang both made about $150 dollars worth of black marks after the event.
The donut thing didn't bother me with only 50-odd drivers at the Mineral Ring. It's their money, but that sort of insanity at Pennington would have caused a riot.
Hello, my name is OUTRACE and I'm a motorcyclist. It has been zero days since my last ride.
i am not saying that it is a bad idea for cars to be teched after an off track excursion, but for me to pass tech the first time, then go back and get bitched at about things that was cleared by another tech inspector, no i cannot tolerate that.
I think that the biggest factor in the event not running as smooth as some wanted, is the freaking huge number of people; kinda hard to get everyone on the same page if you ask me.
i had fun, and thats what i set out to do.
03 LS FM2ish TDR I/C
99 Disco, the go anywhere ride
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